Scivillage.com Casual Discussion Science Forum

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-44691457

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-asia-4...d-the-boys

Quote:After nine days trapped in darkness in a cave in Thailand, 12 boys and their football coach have been found alive.
Two British divers found all 13 safe in a cavern in the Tham Luang cave system in the northern Chiang Rai province.
But the issue now is to get them all out of the cave with rising waters and mud hindering access and the trapped group's health a major concern.
The army says the group might have to wait in the cave for up to four months for floods to recede.
So what are the options to free the youngsters and their coach?

fairly radical idea occured to me as i pondered if they cant move them (all)back to the front, can they move them down to an opening they can blast into the roof of the cave then winch them out ?
assuming the blasting wont block the water flow then back the water up flooding where they are.

if they can float them down and then the water comes up they could be washed away.

an inflatable raft that they can be winched off would be conveniant but if it flips then they are all gone.


alternatively or at the same time, a winchable submerine escape suit would keep them locked in the bag incase they panic.

portable high speed electric winch with hard line coms to the suit as a diver guides the bag back as it is being winched.


alternatively and or 1st some type of puncture resistant inflatable pod that they can climb into which is then inflated into the gap to prevent it(& them) being washed away like a mining emergency air hut.

locked inside a submerine escape suit then guided back by divers (bouyancy issues & suit integrity/rips on rocks)

blasting up stream to divert the water...

Yes, I saw that divers have reached the boys and their coach, and all are alive in a relatively dry part of the cave. There's been an international effort to try to find them, with cave rescuers from the Thai Navy, all over Southeast Asia, Australia, China, the US and the UK.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-44691457

But getting them out is going to be hard. The kids aren't scuba divers and won't be very good at snaking through tight cave passages under water. Especially if nine days without food has weakened them.

Maybe the best thing will be to bring in food, heaters and lights, then try to drill down to them from above like how those Chilean miners were eventually rescued. Send down a rescue capsule like the Chileans used and bring them up one by one. Maybe the Chileans could help.

(Jul 3, 2018 05:34 AM)Yazata Wrote: [ -> ]Yes, I saw that divers have reached the boys and their coach, and all are alive in a relatively dry part of the cave. There's been an international effort to try to find them, with cave rescuers from the Thai Navy, all over Southeast Asia, Australia, the US and the UK.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-44691457

But getting them out is going to be hard. The kids aren't scuba divers and won't be very good at snaking through tight cave passages under water. Especially if nine days without food has weakened them.

Maybe the best thing will be to bring in food and lights, then try to drill down to them from above like how those Chilean miners were eventually rescued. Send down a rescue capsule like the Chileans used. Maybe the Chileans could help.

i agree with you about the idea of following the easy path to keeping them alive vs throwing it all under the buss & hoping some make it out.


ive not read all the news items so have no idea how deep they are.
i read something about it being roughly 2 kilometers in.

i can recal going almost 2 weeks with no food and i certainly did not feel much like walking or climbing.
the helucinations(that come with starvation etc) are probably something they will be thinking about RE panic and shock and sudden heart attacks etc or running off and drowning.
the coach deserves credit for keeping them calm and alive.

(Jul 3, 2018 05:40 AM)RainbowUnicorn Wrote: [ -> ]

(Jul 3, 2018 05:34 AM)Yazata Wrote: [ -> ][...] Especially if nine days without food has weakened them. [...]

[...] i can recal going almost 2 weeks with no food and i certainly did not feel much like walking or climbing. [...]

The good thing is that they weren't playing "eeny, meeny, miny, moe" yet to see who would first sacrifice a leg or a slab of buttock for the group to eat.

Chilean miners considered cannibalism [...] during their 69 days trapped below ground
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...apped.html

The men had been beneath ground for more than a fortnight before any sign came from the surface. [...] It was no joke, there was no more food. But how long before cannibalism became a very realistic option?

'I would say five or 10 days,' says Mario Sepulveda, who became the face of the rescue effort with regular appearances on the camera that was forced through from above. He is now on heavy medication. 'Food or no food, I was going to get out of there…I had to think about which miner was going to collapse first and then I started thinking about how I was going to eat him…I wasn't embarrassed, I wasn't scared.'

~

(Jul 3, 2018 07:26 AM)C C Wrote: [ -> ]

(Jul 3, 2018 05:40 AM)RainbowUnicorn Wrote: [ -> ]

(Jul 3, 2018 05:34 AM)Yazata Wrote: [ -> ][...] Especially if nine days without food has weakened them. [...]

[...] i can recal going almost 2 weeks with no food and i certainly did not feel much like walking or climbing. [...]

The good thing is that they weren't playing "eeny, meeny, miny, moe" yet to see who would first sacrifice a leg or a slab of buttock for the group to eat.

Chilean miners considered cannibalism [...] during their 69 days trapped below ground
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...apped.html

The men had been beneath ground for more than a fortnight before any sign came from the surface. [...] It was no joke, there was no more food. But how long before cannibalism became a very realistic option?

'I would say five or 10 days,' says Mario Sepulveda, who became the face of the rescue effort with regular appearances on the camera that was forced through from above. He is now on heavy medication. 'Food or no food, I was going to get out of there…I had to think about which miner was going to collapse first and then I started thinking about how I was going to eat him…I wasn't embarrassed, I wasn't scared.'

~

your morose sense of humour aside...

if you learn how to meditate correctly then you can over come such feelings like hunger. starving to death does not turn you into a mindles zombie trying to eat the flesh off others.
the mental addiction to the process of feeding yourself is a learnt behaviour like a teenager being taught to not dry hump the leg of all the women they find sexually attractive around them.


should these kids survive there is a good chance a few of them will achieve great things ... potentially, admittedly some of them may not ever recover emotionally, thats the rolling dice of humanity and its complex development etc...

im hoping some of those fabulousely talented folk find some ideas that help.
im sure the Thai king will give those special folk what ever they need to try to do what ever they think might help.

(Jul 3, 2018 09:22 AM)RainbowUnicorn Wrote: [ -> ][...] the helucinations(that come with starvation etc) are probably something they will be thinking about [...] if you learn how to meditate correctly then you can over come such feelings like hunger. starving to death does not turn you into a mindles zombie trying to eat the flesh off others. the mental addiction to the process of feeding yourself is a learnt behaviour like a teenager being taught to not dry hump the leg of all the women they find sexually attractive around them. [...]

History of the Donner Party: A tragedy of the Sierra: The delirium preceding death by starvation, is full of strange phantasies. Visions of plenty, of comfort, of elegance, flit ever before the fast-dimming eyes. [...] The scenes of horror and despair which transpired in the snowy Sierra in the winter of 1846-7, need no exaggeration, no embellishment. From all the works heretofore published, from over one thousand letters received from the survivors, from ample manuscript, and from personal interviews with the most important actors in the tragedy, the facts have been carefully compiled. Neither time, pains, nor expense have been spared in ferreting out the truth.

It's hard to say how accurate the various subjective accounts of the Donner Party were. But I did recollect one documentary which emphasized how the Reed family survived without any deaths and never having resorted to cannibalism. Despite the father being forced to leave the group earlier; and having even the last of the oxhide strips they were cooking into a gel to eat, taken away from them by another party member on the grounds of debt owed.

Virginia Reed [Murphy]: The feeling against my father at one time was so strong that lynching was proposed. He was no coward and he bared his neck, saying, "Come on, gentlemen," but no one moved. It was thought more humane, perhaps, to send him into the wilderness to die of slow starvation or be murdered by the Indians; but my father did not die. God took care of him and his family, and at Donner Lake we seemed especially favored by the Almighty as not one of our family perished, and we were the only family no one member of which was forced to eat of human flesh to keep body and soul together.

~

I think the boys could be rescued by first getting them used to using a scuba, and then swimming under the water with them one at a time with 2 Navy seals on either side till they reach the dry area. If it's too narrow for 3 abreast they could pull them along with a rope.

Is large underwater flexible piping out of the question?  What are they, like 1.5 miles in?  Is that too long or is it too narrow?

They're apparently going for the diver approach, and this week, even though that may be a six to seven day long operation to complete.

Finally, there's some mention of prosecuting the coach. There were signs posted warning of entering the cave during this period of the year, and it's one of the most difficult caves to navigate even without the flooding.

Doctors have visited them and workers have delivered energy gels to the group in an attempt to boost their strength. Meals of pork and rice in sealed containers were being prepared. The group is between 800 metres and 1km below the surface, and roughly 2km (1.24 miles) inside the cave.

. . . [Rick] Stanton and fellow-diver Jason Mallinson rescued six British cavers from Mexico’s Cueva de Alpazat system. “During the Mexico rescue mission in 2004, Stanton is said to have persuaded a caver who was afraid of water to make a 180m dive to safety – but an underwater operation on the scale required in Thailand would be unprecedented,” Divernet reported.

[...] Interior Minister Anupong Paojinda said the boys will need to use scuba gear to make their way through some tunnels that are underwater. The children would be pushed or pulled with ropes by experienced divers.

Laird, who is not involved in the rescue, said the task is an immense one. He said people learning to scuba dive start in a pool, getting used to the gear before moving forward into open water and then, perhaps, caves. These boys will be diving in tight spaces amid sharp rocks, flowing water and low or no visibility, he said. "Every kid is going to be different," Laird said. "Some will be fine with it. Others will be freaked out. They are going to be encountering an environment unknown to them, so you are not going to be able to predict."

Thailand cave rescue: medics reach boys – live updates
https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2...-team-live

Rescue planning: https://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-int...be-rescued

Rescue this week: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/j...-this-week

'Life-or-death situation'
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/worl...754325002/

~

(Jul 3, 2018 07:05 PM)C C Wrote: [ -> ]They're apparently going for the diver approach, and this week, even though that may be a six to seven day long operation to complete.

Finally, there's some mention of prosecuting the coach. There were signs posted warning of entering the cave during this period of the year, and it's one of the most difficult caves to navigate even without the flooding.

Doctors have visited them and workers have delivered energy gels to the group in an attempt to boost their strength. Meals of pork and rice in sealed containers were being prepared. The group is between 800 metres and 1km below the surface, and roughly 2km (1.24 miles) inside the cave.

. . . [Rick] Stanton and fellow-diver Jason Mallinson rescued six British cavers from Mexico’s Cueva de Alpazat system. “During the Mexico rescue mission in 2004, Stanton is said to have persuaded a caver who was afraid of water to make a 180m dive to safety – but an underwater operation on the scale required in Thailand would be unprecedented,” Divernet reported.

[...] Interior Minister Anupong Paojinda said the boys will need to use scuba gear to make their way through some tunnels that are underwater. The children would be pushed or pulled with ropes by experienced divers.

Laird, who is not involved in the rescue, said the task is an immense one. He said people learning to scuba dive start in a pool, getting used to the gear before moving forward into open water and then, perhaps, caves. These boys will be diving in tight spaces amid sharp rocks, flowing water and low or no visibility, he said. "Every kid is going to be different," Laird said. "Some will be fine with it. Others will be freaked out. They are going to be encountering an environment unknown to them, so you are not going to be able to predict."

Thailand cave rescue: medics reach boys – live updates
https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2...-team-live

Rescue planning: https://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-int...be-rescued

Rescue this week: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/j...-this-week

'Life-or-death situation'
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/worl...754325002/

~

ive known a few high school science teachers who have a borderline mad scientist streak in them.
1 whom use to take students on private camping trips.
i saw him turn a wayward boy around. from being a class room A-hole prepping to be a crim to being a focussing student keen to learn.
however it was not USA so not riddled with psychopaths & sadists & cults pretending to be schools (for those readers gasping at the thought).

that said, there must be something wrong with that coaches head to be taking 10 to 13 yo boys on an advanced cave in th emiddle of the rainy season in a cave that floods.
maybe the coach is having some type of midlife crisis about his masculinity & trying to flog the boys to make himself feel manly.
or he is intellectually handicapped and probably should not be managing groups of kids off a closed soccer pitch.


AA, the tube thing.
some parts of the water is supposedly 30 meters deep(in water), the crush pressure on piping(air displacement) of that depth is soo substantial that it is out of the question until modern society gets closer to star trek level technology.


water filled pipe ? is that what you meant ? possibly not, but the idea has small merit assuming the kids dont panic then get stuck and they need to break the childs arms and legs to get them to move forward to get the others out.
children of that age are quite strong, so if they panic they can hurt themselfs quite easily.
panicing at depth they will blow their lungs if they re-surface and given the time required to carry them out, probably would die of th eshock within a few hours.

the rescuers have to carry by hand anything that comes in through 2 kilometers of cave(its not a casual walk along a formed track)

"sqeeze spots"
as they say some places are to narrow to get past wearing a scuba tank... so that ups the difficulty factor by a measure of 100% for rescueing potentially panicing 12yo children while making sure they do not kill the rescuer.


i do ponder if it would be easier to sedate them, knock them out completely then carry them out like a sack of potatoes.
might be a heck of a lot safer and faster.
they may be too weak to sedate(knock unconciouse) for several days atleast.
congenital heart problems, malnourishment, will to live etc etc its a little risky)

they possibly will stop breathing if unconscious and at 30 meters deep in water.
that might also stop their heart.
they might be faced with cardio re-sus at the surface point floating in water with no lights and nothing to push against for compresion.
though they could do minor chest compresions at depth and or against the wall under water in the shallows.
but busting a rib would probably be the end of them at that depth, more soo as they surfaced.

MR
yes thats the idea, however the crazy fact is that most have never learnt to swim.
hows that for mind boggling living in one of th eworlds biggest acapalego populations on the planet.
makes me very angry at the parents, just plain selfish lazy cowards.
all children should be taught to swim by the time they are 10 by their own parents.


and... consequently, adults panic under water.
you get a panic ratio like any groups of people.some people panic and cant use the scuba gear and have to be sent home to develop their mind for 6 months to a year until they have had special one on one swimming lessons to teach them to get over their lack of body control.

the chance of one of them having a panic attact under water when they cant swim and neverused scuba before, means its probably going to be the end of the child there and then. the rescuers will be risking their life quite seriousely at that point, and if one or 2 of the rescuers die, thats probably the end for all the other kids.

CC
Doner Party
Those "Settlers" didnt consider black people as actual people and Genocide was normal to them.
its hard to try and formulate some sense of "what is morals" when you apply some actual real thought to the process.
they married off their kids around age 14 and they beat their wifes and children because the bible told them so.

any sense of moral judgement is like trying to suggest hitler was good with babys in photo ops.

---

Update, "the Doctor is in"
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-44692813

Quote:Seven divers, including a doctor and a nurse, joined the group inside the caves in the north of the country after they were discovered alive on Monday.
Rescuers are now considering how best to bring the group to safety.
More heavy rain could see water levels rise and threaten the air pocket where the group has taken refuge.

i wonder how they are coping with diarrhoea all over the place.
irony in the flowing cold water.
good to be flowing fast, bad to be flowing fast.

their primary goal currently is getting food into them and keeping it in long enough for their stomachs to absorb electrolytes and such like to get the muscles moving again.


maybe a couple of pocket sized muscle stimulators might not be a bad idea.
(about the size of a calculator with wires and sticky pads) that sends specially formulated micro shocks to muscles to make the muscle flex.
you can isolate leg and arm muslces easily