Scivillage.com Casual Discussion Science Forum

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-42235052

Quote:Thousands of people have been forced to flee their homes north of Los Angeles as a fast-moving wildfire rips through the area.

The blaze took hold in the early evening in southern California's Ventura County and burned 10,000 acres (4,000 hectares) within a few hours.

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/12/05/us/ven...index.html

Quote:Los Angeles (CNN)Pushed by powerful Santa Ana winds, a Southern California fire spread with explosive speed to 26,000 acres on Monday night, forcing thousands to evacuate in the dark.

it appears from the observers position that the government input(leadership) into battling climate change fire storms in the US is more about trying to pretend it is not happening.

example
they have the personal, equipment, technology, expereince & obviousely they have the money...



http://www.airplaneboneyards.com/airplan...nd-map.htm




why not have airborne fire fighting divisions ?
one big fire in the right place will cost far more than ...
value for money and a cause worth fighting for ?

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Use retired military planes to fight forest fires more effectively
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/...story.html

Perhaps at least partly due to why the craft were retired to begin with. High standards for vehicles / equipment and their maintenance (safety) -- which the older, now deprecated or legacy machinery could no longer satisfy. Exploding litigation and watchdog crusades keep notching up those criteria for almost every operation / activity / enterprise in general. As well as administrative protective agencies ensuring the threat of consequences from violating those qualifying requirements currently on the books.

How come almost half the world's food goes into dumpsters? Even if a supermarket, restaurant, nursing home, hospital, etc contributed its yearly tons of expired items and leftovers to homeless and poverty outlets -- and never a single recipient got ill from such -- those establishments would eventually still be sued, reported or receive the public wrath of some agitative party or guardian authority.

- - -

The National Guard were heavily engaged in the recent Northern California fire storm. Dozens of helicopters, combat search and rescue, MP's, fuel delivery, transport, communications and more. I don't think that they used soldiers on forested mountainsides with fire coming at them. That's too dangerous for untrained men who don't know what they are doing. Trained firefighting crews flew in from all over, San Diego, Washington State, even South Carolina!

Aircraft stored in the "boneyards" may not even be flyable any longer. Some are just cut up for scrap, after being stripped of still-usable parts. The USAF stores many older aircraft at Davis-Monthan such as they can be restored to service at a later date, but doing that takes a major maintenance overhaul. You just can't point to planes and say 'Gimme those. Get them in the air tomorrow.' Doesn't work like that.

What's more, turning planes into air retardant tankers involves major modifications. It also requires heavily trained very-specialized crews.  

The US Forest Service, CalFire and other states' agencies maintain what amount to airforces of their own. There are also private air firefighting companies that contract with the US Forest Service, Calfire or whoever to supply specialized firefighting aircraft.

https://www.fs.fed.us/fire/aviation/

Calfire has 48 aircraft, most of them former military planes.

http://calfire.ca.gov/fire_protection/fi...ir_program

http://calfire.ca.gov/communications/dow...ts/S2T.pdf

When a particularly big fire emergency occurs, like the recent Napa-Sonoma-Mendocino Wine Country fires, specialized firefighting aircraft fly in from all over the West and the rest of the country. (I believe some came from Canada as well, each country helps the other during fires.) There's a huge mutual-aid component to this.

If the specialized firefighters are overworked, the National Guard helicopters or other military assets are called in. That requires flight crews that are trained in firefighting and helicopters equipped with the firefighting buckets. The Marine Corps helicopters at Camp Pendleton and Miramar often help out in big Southern California fires.

I don't think that shortage of aircraft is usually a major problem, except in the most extreme situations.

The biggest current Southern California fire seems to be the Thomas Fire, which threatens the cities of Ventura, Santa Paula and a bunch of other places in the valleys and canyons. It's big, about 60 square miles, mostly burning in rugged brush-covered mountains. There are lots of evacuations, both mandatory and voluntary, and entire neighborhoods are threatened. More than 100 structures lost. 0% containment as of this morning. It's inside the Ventura city limits but doesn't seem to be burning in suburban neighborhoods yet. Lots of consternation in the Southern California media.

More than 1,000 firefighters from all around Southern California. (My old semi-rural county is proud to have sent 125 firefighters, 15 engines and 2 bulldozers.) Firefighting aircraft have been called in but heavy winds are hampering them. Dry conditions and heavy winds are conditions wildfires love.

Looking at this must create sensations of deja vu all over again for people like SS who just experienced it.

http://www.fire.ca.gov/current_incidents...Index/1922

http://readyventuracounty.org/

https://twitter.com/VCFD

https://twitter.com/vcstar

A whole mountain on fire:

(Dec 5, 2017 07:32 PM)Yazata Wrote: [ -> ]The biggest current Southern California fire seems to be the Thomas Fire, which threatens the cities of Ventura, Santa Paula and a bunch of other places in the valleys and canyons. It's big, about 60 square miles, mostly burning in rugged brush-covered mountains. There are lots of evacuations, both mandatory and voluntary, and entire neighborhoods are threatened. More than 100 structures lost. 0% containment as of this morning. It's inside the Ventura city limits but doesn't seem to be burning in suburban neighborhoods yet. Lots of consternation in the Southern California media.

More than 1,000 firefighters from all around Southern California. (My old semi-rural county is proud to have sent 125 firefighters, 15 engines and 2 bulldozers.) Firefighting aircraft have been called in but heavy winds are hampering them. Dry conditions and heavy winds are conditions wildfires love.

Looking at this must create sensations of deja vu all over again for people like SS who just experienced it.

http://www.fire.ca.gov/current_incidents...Index/1922

http://readyventuracounty.org/

https://twitter.com/VCFD

https://twitter.com/vcstar

A whole mountain on fire:

Quote:What's more, turning planes into air retardant tankers involves major modifications. It also requires heavily trained very-specialized crews. 

what i was pondering was the US government paying the millitary(obviousely bringing in contractor specialists) to re-fit some of the big passenger airliners and then having them strategically placed as large heavy lift arial firefighting with pilots employed by the millitary who get specialised training.
operating a fleet of them in stategic positions for immediate support when needed.
by the looks of things they could get fairly cheap parts for on going serving from the bone yards for passenger airliners.

i think the firefighters/ aka "troops on the ground" whom no one wants injured should always have air cover.
treat it like the war it is...per say.

There is another way. It would require some retrofitting of DARPA/MIT's drone swarm method.
https://navaltoday.com/2017/01/11/video-...nstration/

Rather than having a swarm of drones attack a target, drones could actually be used to create a "Bucket Brigade". If the drones built could scoop water from a water source, they could either take the water to a large receptacle (Like a Blimp with a water cannon or holding tank) or directly to a fire. The concept is that while a single drone doesn't dump a particular large source of water on a fire, hundreds (if not thousands) of drones could generate a continuous supply of water to not just dowse the flames but also keep the temperature down enough to put it out completely.

Adding various foam chemicals to the mix would allow the water to put out fires easier, along with with the potentials of dealing with chemical spills, radiation leaks and even biological threats.

The news makes it sound like things aren't going well in Ventura. This is one of the nicest parts of the greater Los Angeles area, halfway between LA and Santa Barbara. Lots of nice homes. Reportedly the winds are so strong that burning embers are blowing long distances into residential neighborhoods. A house will burn while all the houses around it look fine.  And there will be another house burning few doors down, and... Many homes have burned, but there isn't any count right now. Firefighters are rushing around madly, having to triage their attentions to where they can do the most good. They say it's impossible to set up a fire line where they can make a stand and the fire can be stopped. Aircraft aren't effective as long as the wind is blowing so hard. Still 0% containment.

Very reminiscent of Santa Rosa, Napa Valley and Mendocino not long ago. Still only a small fraction of the number of homes destroyed, but it's ominous.

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Here's a plane-spotter's guide from Calfire to the many firefighting aircraft that are seen in the skies of the Western United States.

http://calfire.ca.gov/communications/dow...ooklet.pdf

They don't all belong to Calfire. Some belong to the US Forest Service, some to private contractors, some to local police and fire departments. And yes, some are military aircraft brought in when 'surges' are necessary, including C-130's, Blackhawks, Chinooks, Marine Super-Stallions and more. (I think that the coolest of the bunch are the Martin Mars flying boats, a real classic aircraft and a treat for plane-spotters. I've never seen one.)

Video from KTLA's (an LA TV station) news helicopter showing the fire's uncontrollable spread into the city of Ventura this afternoon.

Like a scene from an end-of-the-world apocalypse movie.

http://video.dailymail.co.uk/video/mol/2...485784.mp4

Quote:Los Angeles is in a state of emergency as a fire that began in Kagel Canyon, destroyed 30 homes and forced 120,000 to 150,000 to evacuate.

https://patch.com/california/northridge/...ear-sylmar

Quote:Mayor Eric Garcetti said evacuation orders were affecting about 150,000 residents, but a Los Angeles Fire Department spokeswoman put the number at around 120,000.
As of 7 p.m., an estimated 11,377 acres had burned and 2,500 structures were threatened, according to the U.S. Forest Service, which was in unified command with the Los Angeles city and county fire departments.
Garcetti urged residents to heed orders to evacuate -- saying, "Do not wait. Leave your home." -- and added that people should be prepared to spend at least one night away from home.
"Do not expect to back tonight," Garcetti said.
An estimated 600 firefighters and other personnel were on the lines battling the blaze, which was being pushed by sustained winds of 25 mph, along with gusts up to 45 mph.
Three helicopters, 90 engines and two bulldozers were also deployed, according to the Forest Service.

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me...story.html

Quote:“Generally, it’s awful fire weather today, tomorrow and Thursday,” National Weather Service forecaster Ryan Kittell said. “Thursday looks potentially the worst.… We’re still going to have the winds, dry relative humidity and maybe 10 degrees warmer.”

Quote:“This will not be the only fire,” Los Angeles Police Chief Charlie Beck said. “We’re going to be hard-pressed to meet all the resources throughout the city and the county of Los Angeles due to this weather event.”

...[]

Quote:The cause of the fire has not yet been determined, but officials say two people were found badly burned near the point of its origin near a McDonald's restaurant.

I recall the incident where a plane, converted to hold water, was dropping it on forest fires. But probably largely since water is heavy, eventually a wing broke off and all the crew were lost.