Scivillage.com Casual Discussion Science Forum

(Oct 4, 2017 06:22 PM)Zinjanthropos Wrote: [ -> ]

(Oct 4, 2017 02:10 PM)Ostronomos Wrote: [ -> ]

(Oct 4, 2017 01:18 PM)Zinjanthropos Wrote: [ -> ]

Quote:God would connect to the individual at this level .....

Since God is a belief then the above statement is also a belief. It is definitely not a fact and not worth discussing as factual unless one can prove a God exists.

God is a fact. In the past I have successfully demonstrated that God possesses exactly the same properties and attributes of reality and therefore can be said to be real. You cannot see God because you exist on a very restricted and simple plane of existence, not the meta-reality. The conscious universe exists on the unbounded plane of the meta-reality, where the individual spirit becomes a separate entity of unknown extent. The intelligence of the universe is generated when the observer's brain allows them to escape that box or limitation of blind or Classical nature. Only then can one see evidence for God.

There is no escaping the fact that these are also beliefs.

It is illogical to assume you have full access to reality. I have actually seen God once and in the form of a universal consciousness multiple times.

Here is an article that summarizes the CTMU and discusses its nuances: https://medium.com/@variantofone/explain...3a89fc5841

(Oct 3, 2017 08:11 PM)Ostronomos Wrote: [ -> ]Recursive self-definition between reality and mind occurs on the Quantum level of reality. The syndiffeonic relationship between reality and mind ensures that they are inextricably linked at the most fundamental or basic level, a deeper level. 

I had another look at this line and realized exactly what is represents. Similar to the old adage, "the more things change, the more they remain the same", your words are just another way of expressing..... God exists because he just is. With that comes the age old argument, can you get something from nothing? 

If something could come from nothing then one would have to conclude that God, a something, also materialized the same way. However, using your logic and syndiffeonics, that would reduce our reality, the universe, alternate universes, the physical, metaphysical, everything including infinity to actually nothing. We would have to accept that this, our reality, is what nothing looks like.

However that does not sit well with many because it pushes God into the well of nothingness. So logic dictates that something must have always been. It's a popular view and some scientists and theologians will find common ground here. 

Problem is, God is a very tough nut to crack, a euphemistic way of saying proven. I think if one wants to take the position that something always was then that person must accept that any evidence for anything must be empirical in nature. Everything leaves a trail that can be followed. None of this alternate reality or beyond comprehension stuff, which due to lack of evidence should not be considered factual. And that's just it, if factual then it and everything else is from the same pile of something. We're all from the same pile of something, yet I leave empirical evidence and God doesn't. How is this possible? 

I snicker because some whacky genius guy writes an entire treatise on God proof and my simple comedic Exploding God hypothesis carries more weight for validity then his words ever will.   If you want, substitute God for a pile of something and you'll see it all works out. If you're in the mood for more reduction, then just say all that's empirical is God. There's the simplicity you seek.

(Oct 7, 2017 02:58 PM)R ecursive self-definition between reality and mind occurs on the Quantum level of reality. The syndiffeonic relationship between reality and mind ensures that they are inextricably linked at the most fundamental or basic level, a deeper level. Wrote: [ -> ]I had another look at this line and realized exactly what is represents. Similar to the old adage, "the more things change, the more they remain the same", your words are just another way of expressing..... God exists because he just is. With that comes the age old argument, can you get something from nothing?

Yes, you can get something from nothing. Reality for instance is self-caused. It is simple to deduce the logic behind this reasoning, reality is reality, so reality causes reality, not anything other than. This is why potential or nothing can cause something to exist.

Quote:If something could come from nothing then one would have to conclude that God, a something, also materialized the same way.

Correct.

Quote:However, using your logic and syndiffeonics, that would reduce our reality, the universe, alternate universes, the physical, metaphysical, everything including infinity to actually nothing. We would have to accept that this, our reality, is what nothing looks like.

Yes, we would. I am sure the answer to why needs no explanation. 

Quote:However that does not sit well with many because it pushes God into the well of nothingness. So logic dictates that something must have always been. It's a popular view and some scientists and theologians will find common ground here.

You're fudging the logic here. You may not be willing to accept how the universe came from nothing but it does not exclude the fact.

Quote:Problem is, God is a very tough nut to crack, a euphemistic way of saying proven. I think if one wants to take the position that something always was then that person must accept that any evidence for anything must be empirical in nature. Everything leaves a trail that can be followed. None of this alternate reality or beyond comprehension stuff, which due to lack of evidence should not be considered factual. And that's just it, if factual then it and everything else is from the same pile of something. We're all from the same pile of something, yet I leave empirical evidence and God doesn't. How is this possible?

Quote:The trail remark is not true. Only physical manifestations leave a trail. Not mental. Or virtual.

I wanted to further clarify my last comment. Although there is a beginning of time, once the ball starts rolling there is always the possibility that energy transfer, fields, may never cease to exist. Hence conservation of energy and the trail it leaves from whence it came. Consciousness is information and syntax combined to form a kind of language of the mind. God, along with consciousness, would fall under the category of non-objective reality.

Speaking of the mind.....How is it that humanity can design a machine that contains incredible amounts of data/knowledge, is able to perform at a pace that far eclipses that of it's inventor and can actually predict some things with alarming accuracy and yet, we (humanity) cannot use our minds to invent a god that does all these things? It's a taboo subject bordering on paradoxical thinking. What do you think it is about gods that eliminate them from being of our design? Yes I'm asking for what in my mind is a belief but I would like to know the reason why gods are exempt from this line of thinking.

(Oct 8, 2017 03:25 PM)Zinjanthropos Wrote: [ -> ]Speaking of the mind.....How is it that humanity can design a machine that contains incredible amounts of data/knowledge, is able to perform at a pace that far eclipses that of it's inventor and can actually predict some things with alarming accuracy and yet, we (humanity) cannot use our minds to invent a god that does all these things? It's a taboo subject bordering on paradoxical thinking. What do you think it is about gods that eliminate them from being of our design? Yes I'm asking for what in my mind is a belief but I would like to know the reason why gods are exempt from this line of thinking.

Some things a simply outside of our technological capability. Thus it is not so much that it is paradoxical, but impossible. The mind and reality for example are beyond our understanding, but we are making rapid progress in these areas. Soon, we will be able to duplicate such feats of systems.

There's a pattern OS. The more science unravels the mysteries of the universe the more mysterious God becomes. As you say, outside our technical capabilities. Again this is borderline paradoxical thinking. Obviously you don't think any amount of technology will have us ringing God's doorbell and we'll need to get more in touch by using our minds to understand reality. Yet would we know about quantum mechanics by using our minds only? I think if you really want to prove God that it won't be done without science.

(Oct 8, 2017 10:07 PM)Zinjanthropos Wrote: [ -> ]There's a pattern OS. The more science unravels the mysteries of the universe the more mysterious God becomes. As you say, outside our technical capabilities. Again this is borderline paradoxical thinking. Obviously you don't think any amount of technology will have us ringing God's doorbell and we'll need to get more in touch by using our minds to understand reality. Yet would we know about quantum mechanics by using our minds only? I think if you really want to prove God that it won't be done without science.

I believe one day science will take us to new heights of metaphysics. Where technology meets the Quantum realm, this will enable us to summon God one day. Of course we would need science and mathematics to provide us with unquestionable proof of God''s existence, but science will need to overcome certain inherent limitations first if it is to have any hope of lighting the way in a dark sea of doubt and mysticism.

(Oct 9, 2017 12:45 AM),Ostronomos Wrote: [ -> ]

(Oct 8, 2017 10:07 PM)Zinjanthropos Wrote: [ -> ]There's a pattern OS. The more science unravels the mysteries of the universe the more mysterious God becomes. As you say, outside our technical capabilities. Again this is borderline paradoxical thinking. Obviously you don't think any amount of technology will have us ringing God's doorbell and we'll need to get more in touch by using our minds to understand reality. Yet would we know about quantum mechanics by using our minds only? I think if you really want to prove God that it won't be done without science.

I believe one day science will take us to new heights of metaphysics. Where technology meets the Quantum realm, this will enable us to summon God one day. Of course we would need science and mathematics to provide us with unquestionable proof of God''s existence, but science will need to overcome certain inherent limitations first if it is to have any hope of lighting the way in a dark sea of doubt and mysticism.

My point is....you may be searching for a machine. Or if you can wait long enough, the God machine will be invented   I remember years ago I convinced some guy that the universe is the result of a long lost battle between two super alien enemies and that the only way for one side to prevent total defeat was to use a super weapon designed to reboot the universe. IOW start over. 

So imagine a classic battle between good and evil in which the entire battlefield reverts to a new beginning with elements from both sides along for the ride. Why do I tell you this? Just to give you another example of how it went down, anybody can conjure up a tale that explains how we got here and for just about anything else. I think a light hearted approach works but in the end it is all mythology without any real substance or evidence.