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(This will probably look like word salad, however should you want to ask some questions to clarify what it is I'm trying to state it would be extremely helpful since I didn't actually write footnotes on the subject so piecing it back together chronologically is a messy affair.)

Funnily enough the very nature of Freedom (Freewill) and it's existence in the universe is something I've pondered while working on a simulation model.

Everyone has a hobby right? Well while indeed I've mentioned being observed, I've not actually been forthright about what has actually been observed. Some time ago I considered looking into proving the Simulation Model for the universe. Initially I considered trying to get a job over at Cavendish working on building simulations for Cosmology research. Unfortunately I didn't get the job, but that didn't exactly stop me falling down the rabbit hole.

I reasoned at the time that a simulation built upon empirical data would prove that at some point the universe is a simulation, even if it's only for people to study. In some respects you can say it's a duality between the real world that we observe and the one we recreate. I pondered somewhat further and started to consider the depth to how a simulation should be made, I reasoned to look at actually creating a universe within the simulation rather than just using mathematical cheats (Vectors) to manipulate an Artificiality.

The problem is that I've been pondering simulation systems for nearly 20 years, with every re-iteration more consideration was made, I found myself asking many philosophical questions. Like for instance "What was the universes purpose if I made one?", I rationalised:
"Freedom, the capacity to make your own choices, to not be a slave to anyone, to not repeat the same eventuum over and over again, To reach no borders or boundaries"

As you can see it merged a mixture of personal egocentric conclusions based upon humankind and some conclusions based upon the universe itself.

Through my many nights of pondering, I rationalised how a whole universe would be created from a single volume. That volume would have an upper bound not too dissimilar from a Bekenstein bound, the concept was that a memory block can only store so much data, so there has to be an upper limit to what is stored, however if the volume itself is comprised of cloud and considering the potential of software/hardware upgrades in relationship to Moore's Law, it could well be possible to not have a lower bound set. As with each technological innovation higher (Infinitesimal) definition for that volume could be achieved. (In other words the volume doesn't have an atom as it's smallest component, instead it's a tunnelling fractal of ever smaller energy interactions)

Why I picked a single volume, well it's because us humans can only handle finite concepts and values. While we can understand infinite, our rationality for scalar systems implies that we can create a single axiom as a building block and then replicate it infinitely. This means it's something that we can understand and find manageable as opposed to trying to manage an infinite structure straight off the bat.

Why I didn't pick Wheeler/Feynman's "It from a bit"? Creating a universe with a hardset limitation on it's smallest component would mean that there is no way to do a revision should changes need to be made. Using a volume that's simulated where it's level of computation can be increased over time however means revisions are possible. This actually suggests that the universe is actually a multiverse where by many iterations apply compositely together to create what we see as real. (In essence it could well be possible to "onion layer" simulation outputs over real world objects to the point that eventually the object is more simulated than real and this is where revision is necessary to maintain compatibility.)

While I could try to piece together what to say on the subject further, it's getting further away from the nature of the thread itself and why I was explaining all the above.

The process of making a universe from a single volume requires parallels, where by the initial volume is paradoxically duplicated and placed at a different spacial position and time point in relationship to it's original. The idea was that each of these volumes could be processed by individual worlds that worked together through a super-symmetry bridging method to create the universe we observe. This meant however that those universes (which initially branch from the same universal path/trunk) would require following a predetermined outcome (creating the e.g. technology) otherwise we'd lose not just the chance to use the technology, but also the knowledge of where the universe was born from.

So it places the universe (at least in this model) into a duality state where Freewill is intended in the long run, however there is some predetermination just so we have a base to build up from and so we don't get lost to chaos.

Therefore the conclusion: Freewill and Predetermination both exist, neither is absolute as both are required.
We all edit our posts.  I took a snapshot because I wanted to see the changes that you would make.  Don't ask me why.

stryder Wrote:(This will probably look like word salad, however should you want to ask some questions to clarify what it is that I’m trying to state it would be extremely helpful since I didn’t actually write footnotes on the subject so piecing it back together chronologically is a messy affair.)

Is this similar to what you’re talking about, Stryder?

Flickers of Freedom
(Mar 1, 2017 04:48 PM)Secular Sanity Wrote: [ -> ]Is this similar to what you’re talking about, Stryder?

Flickers of Freedom
There are similarities, however the main problem is that I've been going it alone per-say but that's the nature of scientific consensus.

(If more than one observation from different experiments confer the same/similar results then it implies there either must be something of significance or the results are an extremely rare coincidence.)

The main difference is where they use many separate computers, I'm considering on how to use paradoxically different copies of the same one. The reason for this is that it allows a Core build that is universally complicit, should a universal alteration need to be done the core system can be altered and will effect all subsequent "volumes". Since they are all duplicated from the same volume this means that the time delay for change is low (if not nil)

I'd pose it was a form of Non-locality however the problem is that the rendition of meaning alters based upon individual perspective. So it might be perceived wrong and just using a buzz word.
(Mar 1, 2017 02:38 PM)Secular Sanity Wrote: [ -> ]I like English muffins and wheat toast. I had an English muffin yesterday. It was fate.


For the nit-pickers, I guess fate is held to be spiritual whereas determinism is more secular-appealing. But regardless, the philosophical mindset that favors such beforehand and also advocates that free-will must contend with it thereby sets-up a situation where free-will seems forced to take the route of compatibilism. Thus that approach.

There may be multiple ways to pursue compatibilism. Since traditional notions of free-will seem to flirt underlyingly with the idea that "who I am" can be abstracted from one's life-history and the history of the world -- and that identity can then be treated as independent of that timeline which it was native to (as if it's "spooky stuff")... Then one option is to puncture that belief so as to derive a version of free-will that can adapt to a fixed universe (or "repeats of identical circumstances" if so desired).

Wherein "who I am" becomes instead very much dependent upon the course of events it resides in or originally resided in and was shaped by. The course of events can't be different and I still be the same person (psychologically and to some degree physiologically). The properties of "who I am" contribute to or engender decisions or even arbitrary behaviors; because of their relationship, one's identity and the course of events become inseparable or a tad like the sides of a coin.

Now the definition of free-will needs to be overhauled away from a view that "who I am" can be treated independent of the world sequence it was abstracted from. In this context, I would actually want to make the same decisions under the same circumstances, because to do otherwise would lead to me being someone else, even if the variations are slight.[*]

My "will" becomes the autonomy or of my brain / body throughout its whole history, that chain of states as much being temporal parts of itself as its own causes. The latter becomes "me" and not some spooky identity that was abstracted from it as a model to study, contended to be transplant-able into hither or thither alternate realities and yet still be me. The "free" modifier refers to the organism not being dependent upon an external agency to provide its behaviors and cognitions and decisions.

In contrast, a Fate POV broadens from the above narrow consideration of a human individual's autonomous functioning and entertains the idea of some agency that is regulating the overall world as well the individual. Fate may still feature a kind of "personhood" aura about it when not outright realized by deities (thus the spiritual classification).

A deterministic attitude likewise broadens its focus and tends toward impersonal laws or principles or some Platonic item regulating the overall world which the individual is caught in the web of and similarly kept following a pre-established railroad track set by the "general agency" (rather than set by the identity and operation of the human individual itself). In eternalism, the pattern of order would just be "given" simultaneously rather than moment by moment changes being created and regulated by rules. But the emphasis of a deterministic POV would still be on a grand "pattern" exhibited by block-time swallowing everything and seizing all responsibility as opposed to the specifics of the individual substantiating its existence.

IOW, both delegate the cause of one's choices and actions to agencies beyond the structural workings of the brain/body itself. The immediate organism is only granted autonomy in a superficial or appearances sense, and regarded as a captive of heteronomy in the ultimate sense, where responsibility is assigned to an outsider or overarching "plan or pattern" holding it captive. Stirring up potential divine and pseudo-divine reflections like: "We all genuflect to a lofty agency either mysterious or scientific-sounding which is pulling the strings. We're not responsible for our own path."

---------

[*] I actually might not desire any repeats, either, since the "repeated" me might also be deemed distinct from the me of the first time around even if identical; but these are all thought-experiment affairs anyway, conducted to see what falls of them -- which we don't have literal personal interests invested in as far as their being possible or actually happening.
Hopefully my always talking of fate in a deterministic sense rather than in a supernatural one hasn't confused people.
(Mar 1, 2017 11:33 PM)elte Wrote: [ -> ]Hopefully my always talking of fate in a deterministic sense rather than in a supernatural one hasn't confused people


If not for nitpicking exhibited in academic circles, I wouldn't have thought twice about the distinction mattering. Certainly it shouldn't on a non-workshop web forum, as if some kind of class is being taught in the chatter-sphere as opposed to a bunch of people discussing a topic or poking each other in the eyes 3-stooges style (whenever that's more applicable to what's transpiring).
(Mar 1, 2017 02:38 PM)Secular Sanity Wrote: [ -> ]
(Mar 1, 2017 09:38 AM)Syne Wrote: [ -> ]I'm not sure how you think insults are going to help ingratiate yourself enough to warrant more of my time. If you have specific points, quote them.

I chose those words yesterday.  Today you will choose to either help me or not.

Yeah, god forbid you actually manage to quote specific things you'd like feedback on.
(Mar 1, 2017 08:37 PM)C C Wrote: [ -> ][*]I actually might not desire any repeats, either, since the "repeated" me might also be deemed distinct from the me of the first time around even if identical; but these are all thought-experiment affairs anyway, conducted to see what falls of them -- which we don't have literal personal interests invested in as far as their being possible or actually happening.

I wouldn't want any repeats if I were you either. You're pretty cool!

Thanks, C C.

(Mar 1, 2017 11:33 PM)elte Wrote: [ -> ]Hopefully my always talking of fate in a deterministic sense rather than in a supernatural one hasn't confused people.


You didn’t confuse me, elte.  I knew what you meant.  I used the word 'fate' because it’s more provocative.  Will you read this and tell me what you think?

How People Change – Allen Wheelis
Chapter III
Freedom and Necessity


The realm of necessity, therefore, must comprise two categories: the subjective or arbitrary, and the objective or mandatory. Mandatory necessity-like natural law which cannot be disobeyed-is that which cannot be suspended. It derives from forces, conditions, events which lie beyond the self, not subject to choice, unyielding to will and effort. “I wish I had blue eyes,” “…wish I were twenty again,” ” … wish I could fly,” “…wish I lived in the court of the Sun King.” Such wishes are futile, choice is inoperative; the necessity impartially constrains. And since it cannot be put aside there’s not much arguing about it. “If you jump you will fall-whether or not you choose to Fly.” There is consensus, we don’t dwell on it, we accept.

Arbitrary necessity derives from forces within the personality, but construed to be outside. The force may be either impulse or prohibition: “I didn’t want to drink, but couldn’t help it.” That is to say, the impulse to drink does not lie within the “I.” The “I,” which is of course the locus of choice, does not “want” to drink, would choose otherwise, but is overwhelmed by alien force. “I want to marry you,” a woman says to her lover, “want it more than anything in the world. But I can’t divorce my husband. He couldn’t take it . . . would break down. He depends on me. It would kill him.” Here it is loyalty, caring for another’s welfare, which is alleged to lie outside the deciding “I,” which therefore cannot choose, cannot do what it “wants,” but is held to an alien course. As though she were saying, “I do not here preside over internal conflict, do not listen to contending claims within myself to arrive finally at an anguished, fallible decision, but am coerced by a mandate beyond my jurisdiction. I yield to necessity.” The issue is not one of conscious versus unconscious. The contending forces are both conscious. The issue is the boundary of the self, the limits of the “I.”

Arbitrary necessity, therefore-like man-made law is that which may be suspended, disobeyed. When dealing with ourselves the constraining force seems inviolable, a solid wall before us, as though we really “can’t,” have no choice; and if we say so often enough, long enough, and mean it, we may make it so. But when we then look about and observe others doing what we “can’t” do we must conclude that the constraining force is not an attribute of the environing world, not the way things are, but a mandate from within ourselves which we, strangely, exclude from the “I.”
The lady who “wants” to marry her lover but “can’t” divorce her husband might here object. “When I said ‘can’t,”’ she might say, “it was just a way of speaking, a metaphor. It meant that staying with my husband represents duty, not desire, that’s all. In’ a theoretical way I could choose … I know that. But it’s just theoretical. Because … you see, the conflict is so terribly unequal, the considerations that make me stay, that absolutely demand I stay with my husband … they’re so overwhelmingly strong, there’s really no choice. That’s all I mean.”

We make serious record of her objection. In passing we note with surprise that the inequality of the conflict leads her to conclude there is “really no choice,” whereas this same circumstance would have led us to say rather that the choice is easy, one she might arrive at promptly, with the conviction of being right.

It’s only a metaphor, she says. In some theoretical way, she says, she is aware of choice. Perhaps. But we have doubt. In any event we must point out that she specifically denies this choice for which she now claims oblique awareness, that she locates the determining duty outside the “I” and its “wants.” And we might add that if she continues such metaphorical speech long enough she will eventually convince even herself; her “theoretical” choice will become more and more theoretical until, with no remaining consciousness of option, it will disappear in thin air. She then will have made actual something that may once have been but a metaphor. Nothing guarantees our freedom. Deny it often enough and one day it will be gone, and we’ll not know how or when.

Objective necessity is not arguable. My lover dies, I weep, beat my fists on the coffin. Everyone knows what I want; everyone knows that nothing will avail, no prayer, no curse, no desperate effort, nothing, that I shall never get her back. When there is argument about necessity, the alleged constraint is arbitrary, subjective. A house in flames, a trapped child, a restraining neighbor: “You can’t go in! It’s hopeless.” I see it differently: I can go in-if I have the nerve. There may be a chance. It’s not clear whether the situation permits or proscribes; the difference of opinion indicates that the necessity at issue is arbitrary. My neighbor’s statement is more plea than observation; he asks me to perceive that the contemplated action is precluded, to “see” that there is no choice. By so deciding I can make it so. If I agree it is impossible, then-even if mistaken-my having arrived at that judgment will, in a matter of moments, make it true. Our judgments fall within the field of events being judged, so themselves become events, and so alter the field. We survey the course of history and conclude, “Wars are inevitable.” The judgment seems detached, as if we observed from a distant galaxy; in fact it comes from within and, like all judgments, it may be mistaken. It is not inert, :it has consequences, shapes action, moves interest and behavior from, for example, the politics of dissent to the connoisseurship of wine; and so chips off one more fragment of the obstacle to war, thereby makes more likely the war which, when it comes, will vindicate our original judgment and the behavior which issued from it. So we create the necessity which then constrains us, constrains ever more tightly day after day, so vindicating ever more certainly our wisdom in having perceived from the outset we were not free. Finally we are bound hand and foot and may exclaim triumphantly, how right we were!

The areas of necessity and of freedom vary in proportion to each other and in absolute measure. They vary, also, from person to person, and, within the same person, from time to time. Together they comprise the total extent of available experience the range of which is a function of awareness and concern.

Adolescence, traditionally, is the time of greatest freedom, the major choices thereafter being progressively made, settled, and buried, one after another, never to be reopened. These days, however, an exhumation of such issues in later life has become quite common, with a corresponding increase in freedom which makes life again as hazardous as in youth.

Throughout our lives the proportion of necessity to freedom depends upon our tolerance of conflict: the greater our tolerance the more freedom we retain, the less our tolerance the more we jettison; for high among the uses of necessity is relief from tension. What we can’t alter we don’t have to worry about; so the enlargement of necessity is a measure of economy in psychic housekeeping. The more issues we have closed the fewer we have to fret about. For many of us, for example, the issues of stealing and of homosexuality are so completely buried that we no longer have consciousness of option, and so no longer in these matters have freedom: We may then walk through Tiffany’s or go to the ballet without temptation or conflict, whereas for one to whom these are still live issues, the choice depending upon a constantly shifting balance of fallibly estimated rewards of gain or pleasure as against risks of capture or shame, such jaunts may entail great tension.

Tranquility, however, has risks of its own. As we expand necessity and so relieve ourselves of conflict and responsibility, we are relieved, also, in the same measure, of authority and significance. When there arises then a crisis which does not fall within our limited routine we are frightened, without resources, insignificant.

For some people necessity expands cancerously, every possibility of invention and variation being transformed into inflexible routine until all of freedom is eaten away. The extreme in psychic economy is an existence in which everything occurs by law. Since life means conflict, such a state is living death. When, in the other direction, the area of necessity is too much diminished we become confused, anxious, may be paralyzed by conflict, may reach eventually the extreme of panic.

The more we are threatened, fragile, vulnerable, the more we renounce freedom in favor of an expanding necessity, Observing others then who laugh at risk, who venture on paths from which we have turned back, we feel envy; they are courageous where we are timid. We come close to despising ourselves, but recover quickly, can always take refuge in a hidden determinism. “It’s all an illusion,” we say; “it looks like their will and daring as against my inhibition and weakness, but that must be illusion. Because life is lawful. Nothing happens by chance. Not a single atom veers off course at random. My inhibition is not a failure of nerve. We can’t see the forces that mold us, but they are there. The genetic and experiential dice are loaded with factors unknown, unknowable, not of our intending, are thrown in circumstances over which we have no vision or control; we are stuck with the numbers that turn up. Beware the man who claims to be captain of his soul, he’s first mate at the very best.”

The more we are strong and daring the more we will diminish necessity in favor of an expanding freedom. “We are responsible,” we say, “for what we are. We create ourselves. We have done as we have chosen to do, and by so doing have become what we are. If we don’t like it, tomorrow is another day, and we may do differently.”

Each speaks truly for himself, the one is just so determined, the other is just so free; but each overstates his truth in ascribing his constraint or his liberty to life at large. These truths are partial, do not contend with each other. Each expresses a quality of experience. Which view one chooses to express, to the exclusion of the other, better describes the speaker than the human condition.

In every situation, for every person, there is a realm of freedom and a realm of constraint. One may live in either realm. One must recognize the irresistible forces, the iron fist, the stone wall-must know them for what they are in order not to fall into the sea like Icarus-but, knowing them, one may turn away and live in the realm of one’s freedom. A farmer must know the fence which bounds his land but need not spend his life standing there, looking out, beating his fists on the rails; better he till his soil, think of what to grow, where to plant the fruit trees. However small the area of freedom, attention and devotion may expand it to occupy the whole of life.

Look at the wretched people huddled in line for the gas chambers at Auschwitz. If they do anything other than move on quietly, they will be clubbed down. Where is freedom? … But wait. Go back in time, enter the actual event, the very moment: they are thin and weak, and they smell; hear the weary shuffling steps, the anguished catch of breath, the clutch of hand. Enter now the mind of one hunched and limping man. The line moves slowly; a few yards ahead begin the steps down. He sees the sign, someone whispers “showers,” but he knows-what happens here. He is struggling with a choice: to shout “Comrades! They will kill you! Run!” or to say nothing. This option, in the few moments remaining, is his whole life. If he shouts he dies now, painfully; if he moves on silently he dies but minutes later. Looking back on him in time and memory, we find the moment poignant but the freedom negligible. It makes no difference, we think, in that situation, his election of daring or of inhibition. Both are futile, without consequence. History sees no freedom for him, notes only constraint, labels him victim. But in the consciousness of that one man it makes great difference whether or not he experience the choice. For if he knows the constraint and nothing else, if he thinks “Nothing is possible,” then he is living his necessity; but if, perceiving the constraint, he turns from it to a choice between two possible courses of action, then-however he choose-he is living his freedom. This commitment to freedom may extend to the last breath.

(Mar 2, 2017 12:50 AM)Syne Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah, god forbid you actually manage to quote specific things you'd like feedback on.

2017:  What Scientific Term or Concept Ought to be More Widely Known?  Jerry A. Coyne—Determinism

I can’t change the past, Syne, but could I have chosen to eat the wheat toast instead of the English muffin?
I know, I talk philosophy like Einstein talked sports. Here's my take on determinism.

Like hindsight, determinism is perfect. IOW's in order to declare an event/action determined by causes external to the human will, the event has to first occur. The facts are laid out, if you want to blame Gods, the Big Bang or a person for causing it then do so. However what happens when I don't know or can't possibly know the end result of a cause?

Here's an example of where it breaks down IMHO. Known fact that impaired drivers kill people. After a while a law is passed prohibiting impaired operation of a motor vehicle. Later on statistics prove that deaths due to impaired drivers decreased by 50%. We know who was killed (determined) but we don't know who was saved (undetermined). Who among us can say with absolute certainty that they are alive because drunk driving laws have lessened the amount fatalities? 

There are causes with unknown results.  Confused
(Mar 2, 2017 03:47 AM)Secular Sanity Wrote: [ -> ]
(Mar 2, 2017 12:50 AM)Syne Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah, god forbid you actually manage to quote specific things you'd like feedback on.

2017:  What Scientific Term or Concept Ought to be More Widely Known?  Jerry A. Coyne—Determinism

I can’t change the past, Syne, but could I have chosen to eat the wheat toast instead of the English muffin?

Since Coyne seems to just dismiss scientifically demonstrated indeterminism, e.g. "And even molecular quantum effects, which probably don’t even affect our acts, can’t possibly give us conscious control over our behavior", I'm not sure how he can make a strong argument for determinism.

If I challenge you to pick one and then while only half way though it pick the other, would I have determined your choice? Maybe I wasn't free to make the challenge, but neither would you have been free to refuse it. If you flip a coin, was your choice deterministic? How can deterministic causes result in probabilistic outcomes?

Flaws in the research fall into several categories: 1) premise deficiencies, 2) technical limitations in experimental design, 3) misinterpretation of events preceding the decision, 3) unreliability of self-reported decision, 4) over-drawn generalizations of the implications. I and numerous others have identified these flaws in some detail. As long as Libet-type experiments can't pass analytic muster, free-will illusionists have no real evidence for their conclusion that humans lack free will. - https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/mem...t-illusion

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