(Dec 3, 2016 09:06 PM)Syne Wrote: [ -> ] (Dec 3, 2016 05:42 PM)Secular Sanity Wrote: [ -> ]While the objective of dying for a cause, an entity, or protecting others is obvious, I don’t necessarily agree that other forms of suicide are without aim. Some feel that they are a burden and that the world would be better off without them. In their mind it is a form of altruistic suicide.
The girl in the video, her goal was to experience a sense of peace. The relief from psychological anguish or physical pain is a goal.
The aim of suicide is always some extreme form of selfish escapism, no matter the justification.
"The pejorative, disrespectful, and ignorant statements that we are assaulted with concerning suicide angels are in abundance…and are disquieting to cope with on a daily basis.
You’ve heard them many times, statements about suicide being “a sin,” “a crime,” “an act of self-murder,” etc. Well, let me address one more ignorant statement – that suicide is a “selfish” act.
WRONG.
Suicide is a desperate act by someone who is in intense pain and wants their pain to stop. That is a HUMAN response to extreme pain, not a selfish one. And over 90 percent of the people who die by suicide have a mental illness at the time of their death, so they are not thinking clearly.
Saying that a person who had severe clinical depression, schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, PTSD, or a similar illness was engaging in an act of selfishness when they died by suicide – even though their thought process, mood, and judgment were greatly affected by their mental illness – is not only inaccurate, but downright cruel, to both the suicide angel and the suicide survivors.
And those who use the word “selfish” are merely helping perpetuate the STIGMA associated with suicide.
A suicidal action that manifests from intense, excruciating, unbearable pain associated with a serious mental illness has nothing to do with selfishness. Period."----
http://www.suicide.org/suicide-is-not-a-...h-act.html
How on earth is wanting your own pain to end NOT selfish? The only motive there is personal self-interest...and commonly at the expense of loved ones. It may very well be a desperate act, but desperation and selfishness are not mutually exclusive. To the contrary, desperation is one of the greatest motivators for selfishness. And who ever said selfishness wasn't a HUMAN response? Most people can sympathize with those in great pain, and understand the motivation for suicide. Just sounds like a knee-jerk reaction of people who vilify all selfishness as wholly evil.
(Dec 3, 2016 10:02 PM)Syne Wrote: [ -> ]How on earth is wanting your own pain to end NOT selfish? The only motive there is personal self-interest...and commonly at the expense of loved ones. It may very well be a desperate act, but desperation and selfishness are not mutually exclusive. To the contrary, desperation is one of the greatest motivators for selfishness. And who ever said selfishness wasn't a HUMAN response? Most people can sympathize with those in great pain, and understand the motivation for suicide. Just sounds like a knee-jerk reaction of people who vilify all selfishness as wholly evil.
"Selfish" is a moral devaluation that relies on an assumption of ignoring the needs of others over yourself. But alleviating pain is not selfish in this sense. There is no moral mandate to go thru pain just to keep others happy. If you are in pain, alleviate it. Take an aspirin. Go to the dentist for the toothache. Go lie down during your birthday party if you have a migraine. Alleviating your own pain doesn't conflict with the desires of the people who really care about you. If the pain is too much and you need to bow out, then that's your right. It's not a selfish deed. It's your basic right to avoid pain, no matter who it might affect.
(Dec 4, 2016 12:20 AM)Magical Realist Wrote: [ -> ] (Dec 3, 2016 10:02 PM)Syne Wrote: [ -> ]How on earth is wanting your own pain to end NOT selfish? The only motive there is personal self-interest...and commonly at the expense of loved ones. It may very well be a desperate act, but desperation and selfishness are not mutually exclusive. To the contrary, desperation is one of the greatest motivators for selfishness. And who ever said selfishness wasn't a HUMAN response? Most people can sympathize with those in great pain, and understand the motivation for suicide. Just sounds like a knee-jerk reaction of people who vilify all selfishness as wholly evil.
"Selfish" is a moral devaluation that relies on an assumption of ignoring the needs of others over yourself. But alleviating pain is not selfish in this sense. There is no moral mandate to go thru pain just to keep others happy. If you are in pain, alleviate it. Take an aspirin. Go to the dentist for the toothache. Go lie down during your birthday party if you have a migraine. Alleviating your own pain doesn't conflict with the desires of the people who really care about you. If the pain is too much and you need to bow out, then that's your right. It's not a selfish deed. It's your basic right to avoid pain, no matter who it might affect.
Suicide does ignore the needs of others over yourself. It presumes there's no other relief than death, regardless of supporting family and other options. And it's silly to compare suicide with taking an aspirin or laying down.
(Dec 4, 2016 12:37 AM)Syne Wrote: [ -> ] (Dec 4, 2016 12:20 AM)Magical Realist Wrote: [ -> ] (Dec 3, 2016 10:02 PM)Syne Wrote: [ -> ]How on earth is wanting your own pain to end NOT selfish? The only motive there is personal self-interest...and commonly at the expense of loved ones. It may very well be a desperate act, but desperation and selfishness are not mutually exclusive. To the contrary, desperation is one of the greatest motivators for selfishness. And who ever said selfishness wasn't a HUMAN response? Most people can sympathize with those in great pain, and understand the motivation for suicide. Just sounds like a knee-jerk reaction of people who vilify all selfishness as wholly evil.
"Selfish" is a moral devaluation that relies on an assumption of ignoring the needs of others over yourself. But alleviating pain is not selfish in this sense. There is no moral mandate to go thru pain just to keep others happy. If you are in pain, alleviate it. Take an aspirin. Go to the dentist for the toothache. Go lie down during your birthday party if you have a migraine. Alleviating your own pain doesn't conflict with the desires of the people who really care about you. If the pain is too much and you need to bow out, then that's your right. It's not a selfish deed. It's your basic right to avoid pain, no matter who it might affect.
Suicide does ignore the needs of others over yourself. It presumes there's no other relief than death, regardless of supporting family and other options. And it's silly to compare suicide with taking an aspirin or laying down.
LOL! The need of others to just have you keep hanging around suffering pain doesn't override your right to end your own pain. Ever! If ending your life is the only solution open to you, then truly caring people will understand. Sometimes meds and therapy don't work. People should have this option open if it gets too hard.
In fact it is selfish to demand people hang around in pain just to please you. Love is about letting go when you need to. But then you wouldn't know about that would you?
Persistent ignorance about depression and blatant misconceptions of the disease by the public, and even some health providers, as a personal weakness or failing that can be "willed" or "wished away", lead to painful stigmatization of sufferers, and avoidance of the diagnosis by many persons who are affected by the disease. (Source)
Camus suggested that we escape the meaningless of reality through either suicide or hope, but there is no sense of escape in death. The relief they’re seeking can only be found in life, but I cannot judge them because I’ve never felt the darkness of hopelessness. I don’t know what it feels like.
(Dec 4, 2016 12:44 AM)Magical Realist Wrote: [ -> ] (Dec 4, 2016 12:37 AM)Syne Wrote: [ -> ]Suicide does ignore the needs of others over yourself. It presumes there's no other relief than death, regardless of supporting family and other options. And it's silly to compare suicide with taking an aspirin or laying down.
LOL! The need of others to just have you keep hanging around suffering pain doesn't override your right to end your own pain. Ever! If ending your life is the only solution open to you, then truly caring people will understand. Sometimes meds and therapy don't work. People should have this option open if it gets too hard.
In fact it is selfish to demand people hang around in pain just to please you. Love is about letting go when you need to. But then you wouldn't know about that would you?
I don't know what kind of hypothetical situation you're talking about, but I'm speaking in general. Or maybe you'd be on the side of this girl's psychiatrist...and advise suicide, even when she obviously wasn't ready to do it.
(Dec 4, 2016 04:57 AM)Syne Wrote: [ -> ] (Dec 4, 2016 12:44 AM)Magical Realist Wrote: [ -> ] (Dec 4, 2016 12:37 AM)Syne Wrote: [ -> ]Suicide does ignore the needs of others over yourself. It presumes there's no other relief than death, regardless of supporting family and other options. And it's silly to compare suicide with taking an aspirin or laying down.
LOL! The need of others to just have you keep hanging around suffering pain doesn't override your right to end your own pain. Ever! If ending your life is the only solution open to you, then truly caring people will understand. Sometimes meds and therapy don't work. People should have this option open if it gets too hard.
In fact it is selfish to demand people hang around in pain just to please you. Love is about letting go when you need to. But then you wouldn't know about that would you?
I don't know what kind of hypothetical situation you're talking about, but I'm speaking in general. Or maybe you'd be on the side of this girl's psychiatrist...and advise suicide, even when she obviously wasn't ready to do it.
I've been talking about people suffering enough to end their own lives. What the fuck have you been talking about?
(Dec 4, 2016 06:55 AM)Magical Realist Wrote: [ -> ] (Dec 4, 2016 04:57 AM)Syne Wrote: [ -> ] (Dec 4, 2016 12:44 AM)Magical Realist Wrote: [ -> ]LOL! The need of others to just have you keep hanging around suffering pain doesn't override your right to end your own pain. Ever! If ending your life is the only solution open to you, then truly caring people will understand. Sometimes meds and therapy don't work. People should have this option open if it gets too hard.
In fact it is selfish to demand people hang around in pain just to please you. Love is about letting go when you need to. But then you wouldn't know about that would you?
I don't know what kind of hypothetical situation you're talking about, but I'm speaking in general. Or maybe you'd be on the side of this girl's psychiatrist...and advise suicide, even when she obviously wasn't ready to do it.
I've been talking about people suffering enough to end their own lives. What the fuck have you been talking about?
No, you're talking about a specific kind of hypothetical where there are no other options. I'm talking about the general case, where there are usually some kind of options, even if only partial relief. Things are very rarely so cut and dried.
So yes, if you're chained into a torture device and the only possible relief, from the constant, inescapable, and interminable pain, is to slit your wrist against a rusty nail near your bonds, that is preferable...and most people would wholeheartedly agree. It is still selfish (which isn't necessarily an admonition...only socialists think it always must be), but all your loved ones would wish you dead as well. No one could be expected to think of anyone but themselves in such a dire situation.
So can we now dispense with the strawman that I am somehow heartlessly denying this specific sort of hypothetical?
Quote:No, you're talking about a specific kind of hypothetical where there are no other options.
Precisely. Someone suffering mental illness so much and for which meds and therapy aren't working that they prefer the relief of death. That's what suicide is. People don't resort to such an extreme solution lightly.