Scivillage.com Casual Discussion Science Forum

Magical Realist, that is a very interesting thought! That is a difference between a discovery and coming up with a theory to we all can believe is a universal truth. Isn't that what separated the Greeks from the rest of the world? Other people discovered math and how it can be practically applied, but the Greeks went beyond this practical knowledge to produce theories. This lead to agreeing gods are possible and a lot of arguing about what can be true of a god. No longer were all gods pretty equal, but they could be real or false.

Hum, are we back to the question of meaning? If a God is universal and our ideas of God are universally agreeable, what does this mean? The Greeks and others discovered plenty of gods. That was a lot easier than determining who has the best theory.

(Nov 29, 2016 10:37 PM)Carol Wrote: [ -> ]Magical Realist, that is a very interesting thought!  That is a difference between a discovery and coming up with a theory to we all can believe is a universal truth.   Isn't that what separated the Greeks from the rest of the world?   Other people discovered math and how it can be practically applied, but the Greeks went beyond this practical knowledge to produce theories.  This lead to agreeing gods are possible and a lot of arguing about what can be true of a god.  No longer were all gods pretty equal, but they could be real or false.  

Hum, are we back to the question of meaning?  If a God is universal and our ideas of God are universally agreeable, what does this mean?   The Greeks and others discovered plenty of gods.  That was a lot easier than determining who has the best theory.

I think the Greek theories of the universe came after their beliefs in gods. Gods were generally the result of religions of various nations and cultures. Many were syncretistically integrated into single pantheons of a conquering empire. The rejected gods tended to be those of the maternal wood deities that receded into the rural areas of the heathens. When the Greeks discovered written language, everything changed. The universe then began to be reduced to abstract principles and properties. That was the beginning of philosophy, mathematics, and science.

(Nov 29, 2016 03:53 PM)Carol Wrote: [ -> ]And we laugh at the people who worshiped the sun why?  Do you know if you filter out the green or red frequencies of the light that feeds plants they do not grow like healthy plants?  All the colors are needed to make plants grow like they should.   That totally mystifies me.

I considered this some time ago in regards to researching how to create better tasting fruit/vegetables. Back then at this time of year the supermarkets would be inundated with out of season vegetables and fruit, which was often only possible due to greenhouses. This meant the fruit could well be bitter or have absolutely no taste at all.

I reasoned that adjusting the frequencies of light to match the colour changes of plants (to some extent) was important as depending on their particular colour at a given time derives was radiation they absorb which is part of how photosynthesis changes their chemical makeup.

Thinking about it in such a way allowed the rationalisation of why a strawberry can start green, turn pale then eventually redden (and if left too long brown) the same can be applied to other fruits/vegetables (although root veg are leaf dependent).

I even considered autumn/fall due to the colouration of leaves. Specific light frequencies occur as the earth's position in relationship to the sun causes light to have to travel through more of the atmosphere. Coming in at such a low degree from the horizon increases the amount of atmosphere that has to be penetrated which in turn reduces the types of frequencies readily available. For instance infrared is a short wave formation that doesn't make it through as much at that angle, which is why winters are colder (unless you happen to be in Southern Hemisphere since it's summer)

Infrared is also important during the "red" phase of fruit since it aids in how the sugars are produced. Autumn browns literally aid in tailoring off the last of sun shine to create chemical changes for annuals which means the whether acts as a marker to when a tree should consider reducing it's energy usage and "hibernate" to some extent for it's survival.

Of course changes in out atmosphere through smog, natural events and obviously other man made ones can cause changes in how plants react in our environment and this can cause them to be out of sync with seasonal cycles. While this can be an advantage if some thing bear fruit or veg at a later point in the year, it can also be problematic as some plants won't cycle down when they should and this leaves them prone to eventual season changes that can effect them sharply. (like a frost killing plants that weren't ready for it.)

The same rationality of light and what frequencies you expect at what time of year can also be used when looking at designing room layouts for a house.

For instance In the Northern Hemisphere it makes sense to have the bedroom windows face north, since it's the darker direction (The suns light goes East->South->West during the day) For a decent nights sleep, we require darkness for the most part (Aids in Melanin production) Bathrooms are often next to bedrooms and which means if the bedrooms are set to 11-1 oclock position (facing north) bathrooms occupy the 8-11, 1-3 range. Living rooms are 3-7 Kitchens 3-4, 7-8. (The times are roughly correctly, although an hour this way or that is possible, especially considering daylight savings)

Why place rooms in relationship to a time? Well that's where walls painted particular colours come into consideration. For instance bedrooms should be richly deep and dark colours, after all they are suppose to be dark and support sleep in that sense. Bathrooms are set extremely late evening or extremely early morning, this means they can occasionally have sunrises/sunsets at some times of the year but for the most part they don't have direct sunlight. Eggshell blue and pastels make sense in that situation, Kitchens Morning or Evening (Makes sense for meals etc) so Yellows or Oranges and then of course living rooms which again Yellows/Oranges.

The concept is that as the light position changes so does the frequencies of light output by the sun, so to get the best lighting in the room requires identifying which colours are going to be able to reflect those ranges. (Obviously night time isn't lit so dark paints is just about taste or sleep)

(Nov 30, 2016 02:46 PM)stryder Wrote: [ -> ]

(Nov 29, 2016 03:53 PM)Carol Wrote: [ -> ]And we laugh at the people who worshiped the sun why?  Do you know if you filter out the green or red frequencies of the light that feeds plants they do not grow like healthy plants?  All the colors are needed to make plants grow like they should.   That totally mystifies me.

I considered this some time ago in regards to researching how to create better tasting fruit/vegetables.  Back then at this time of year the supermarkets would be inundated with out of season vegetables and fruit, which was often only possible due to greenhouses.  This meant the fruit could well be bitter or have absolutely no taste at all.

I reasoned that adjusting the frequencies of light to match the colour changes of plants (to some extent) was important as depending on their particular colour at a given time derives was radiation they absorb which is part of how photosynthesis changes their chemical makeup.

Thinking about it in such a way allowed the rationalisation of why a strawberry can start green, turn pale then eventually redden (and if left too long brown) the same can be applied to other fruits/vegetables (although root veg are leaf dependent).

I even considered autumn/fall due to the colouration of leaves.  Specific light frequencies occur as the earth's position in relationship to the sun causes light to have to travel through more of the atmosphere.  Coming in at such a low degree from the horizon increases the amount of atmosphere that has to be penetrated which in turn reduces the types of frequencies readily available.  For instance infrared is a short wave formation that doesn't make it through as much at that angle, which is why winters are colder (unless you happen to be in Southern Hemisphere since it's summer)

Infrared is also important during the "red" phase of fruit since it aids in how the sugars are produced.  Autumn browns literally aid in tailoring off the last of sun shine to create chemical changes for annuals which means the whether acts as a marker to when a tree should consider reducing it's energy usage and "hibernate" to some extent for it's survival.

Of course changes in out atmosphere through smog, natural events and obviously other man made ones can cause changes in how plants react in our environment and this can cause them to be out of sync with seasonal cycles.  While this can be an advantage if some thing bear fruit or veg at a later point in the year, it can also be problematic as some plants won't cycle down when they should and this leaves them prone to eventual season changes that can effect them sharply.  (like a frost killing plants that weren't ready for it.)

The same rationality of light and what frequencies you expect at what time of year can also be used when looking at designing room layouts for a house.  

For instance In the Northern Hemisphere it makes sense to have the bedroom windows face north, since it's the darker direction (The suns light goes East->South->West during the day)  For a decent nights sleep, we require darkness for the most part (Aids in Melanin production)  Bathrooms are often next to bedrooms and which means if the bedrooms are set to 11-1 oclock position (facing north) bathrooms occupy the 8-11, 1-3 range.  Living rooms are 3-7 Kitchens 3-4, 7-8.   (The times are roughly correctly, although an hour this way or that is possible, especially considering daylight savings)

Why place rooms in relationship to a time?  Well that's where walls painted particular colours come into consideration.  For instance bedrooms should be richly deep and dark colours, after all they are suppose to be dark and support sleep in that sense.  Bathrooms are set extremely late evening or extremely early morning, this means they can occasionally have sunrises/sunsets at some times of the year but for the most part they don't have direct sunlight.  Eggshell blue and pastels make sense in that situation,  Kitchens Morning or Evening (Makes sense for meals etc) so Yellows or Oranges and then of course living rooms which again Yellows/Oranges.

The concept is that as the light position changes so does the frequencies of light output by the sun, so to get the best lighting in the room requires identifying which colours are going to be able to reflect those ranges.  (Obviously night time isn't lit so dark paints is just about taste or sleep)

Synder, you excited me too much for me to be able to read your reply without first venting some of this excitement.   I am enjoying this forum soooo much, I had to return to a former forum to let those folks know.  I still expect the psychologically beating that is common to science forums, so when someone here picks up something I said and comes back with a comment from science instead of a psychological beating, I become overwhelmed with joy!   What is wrong with the folks in the other forums?  Why can they not see how they are destroying their forums?  A small click takes power and the growth of the forum stops and atrophy begins.  Everyone who is not in rigid step with their very small pool of knowledge is driven out, and like the church of old they prevent any new thoughts from occurring.  And here you are, replying to a pagan, taboo statement with words of science.  Now that is what I have been looking for!  THANK YOU.

Now I am out time and look forward to getting back to your post as soon as possible.  It just so happens I really care about this subject of sunlight and its effect on living things.  Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Many in science forums seem to me to be cantankerous curmudgeons who have no life and have to boost their diminishing egos thru petty hairsplitting and bullying of less verbose members. That's my impression, at least of another forum I am frequently banned from for speaking my mind. But coming across genuine and intelligent people now and then as in this forum really makes all that bs worth it in the long run. I've known CC and Yazata for many years here on the web. We have always had fascinating and cordial discussions on numerous topics that spurred me into further explorations of new ideas. I have probably learned more by being part of these forums than I would have if I had gotten a degree at a university. And it's all USEFUL knowledge humanized for application in my own experience instead of dry pronouncements from boring textbooks. It's objective views and wise insights eloquently tailored to me by people who know me. The best thing about intelligent and provocative online conversation is that it leads to independent thinking and a sharpening of logical skills as well and a deepening of one's own creative writing talents.

Casually speaking......Never would have believed a science forum could be casual. Every science forum I've ever been on guards science like it's the golden egg.  It's as if you can't make a statement without citation, you just can't unless you want to face the wrath of the community(survivors?). It gets labelled SPAM immediately. No citation then get lost, pretty simple. Should they be allowed that right, keep their club focused, prevent an unsupported virus from contaminating the site? Maybe so and I would agree 100% that free thinking or thoughts outside the box are generally stifled. If you cannot provide the validation then don't bother reporting. Would you let a person into your country without credentials? This philosophy certainly limits membership participation and is a huge contributor to an eventual death. A sure sign is the lack of new threads that inevitably stop appearing. Are we to believe that only scientists think? The exclusivity of such a notion is not good for maintaining members or even welcoming. I can understand why they feel that way but if you only want scientists to join then just say so. I laugh whenever they ask for scientific citations for ideas, yet anyone can join, it's paradoxical in some way. Casually speaking anyways....

(Nov 30, 2016 02:46 PM)stryder Wrote: [ -> ]

(Nov 29, 2016 03:53 PM)Carol Wrote: [ -> ]And we laugh at the people who worshiped the sun why?  Do you know if you filter out the green or red frequencies of the light that feeds plants they do not grow like healthy plants?  All the colors are needed to make plants grow like they should.   That totally mystifies me.

I considered this some time ago in regards to researching how to create better tasting fruit/vegetables.  Back then at this time of year the supermarkets would be inundated with out of season vegetables and fruit, which was often only possible due to greenhouses.  This meant the fruit could well be bitter or have absolutely no taste at all.

I reasoned that adjusting the frequencies of light to match the colour changes of plants (to some extent) was important as depending on their particular colour at a given time derives was radiation they absorb which is part of how photosynthesis changes their chemical makeup.

Thinking about it in such a way allowed the rationalisation of why a strawberry can start green, turn pale then eventually redden (and if left too long brown) the same can be applied to other fruits/vegetables (although root veg are leaf dependent).

I even considered autumn/fall due to the colouration of leaves.  Specific light frequencies occur as the earth's position in relationship to the sun causes light to have to travel through more of the atmosphere.  Coming in at such a low degree from the horizon increases the amount of atmosphere that has to be penetrated which in turn reduces the types of frequencies readily available.  For instance infrared is a short wave formation that doesn't make it through as much at that angle, which is why winters are colder (unless you happen to be in Southern Hemisphere since it's summer)

Infrared is also important during the "red" phase of fruit since it aids in how the sugars are produced.  Autumn browns literally aid in tailoring off the last of sun shine to create chemical changes for annuals which means the whether acts as a marker to when a tree should consider reducing it's energy usage and "hibernate" to some extent for it's survival.

Of course changes in out atmosphere through smog, natural events and obviously other man made ones can cause changes in how plants react in our environment and this can cause them to be out of sync with seasonal cycles.  While this can be an advantage if some thing bear fruit or veg at a later point in the year, it can also be problematic as some plants won't cycle down when they should and this leaves them prone to eventual season changes that can effect them sharply.  (like a frost killing plants that weren't ready for it.)

The same rationality of light and what frequencies you expect at what time of year can also be used when looking at designing room layouts for a house.  

For instance In the Northern Hemisphere it makes sense to have the bedroom windows face north, since it's the darker direction (The suns light goes East->South->West during the day)  For a decent nights sleep, we require darkness for the most part (Aids in Melanin production)  Bathrooms are often next to bedrooms and which means if the bedrooms are set to 11-1 oclock position (facing north) bathrooms occupy the 8-11, 1-3 range.  Living rooms are 3-7 Kitchens 3-4, 7-8.   (The times are roughly correctly, although an hour this way or that is possible, especially considering daylight savings)

Why place rooms in relationship to a time?  Well that's where walls painted particular colours come into consideration.  For instance bedrooms should be richly deep and dark colours, after all they are suppose to be dark and support sleep in that sense.  Bathrooms are set extremely late evening or extremely early morning, this means they can occasionally have sunrises/sunsets at some times of the year but for the most part they don't have direct sunlight.  Eggshell blue and pastels make sense in that situation,  Kitchens Morning or Evening (Makes sense for meals etc) so Yellows or Oranges and then of course living rooms which again Yellows/Oranges.

The concept is that as the light position changes so does the frequencies of light output by the sun, so to get the best lighting in the room requires identifying which colours are going to be able to reflect those ranges.  (Obviously night time isn't lit so dark paints is just about taste or sleep)

Oh my god, where did you get that information!  I have to have more!  How did you come to think things through in this way?  Can you lead me step by step?  I must know more about light and color.  I must get my DVD of lectures about science and technology back from a friend because it contains an explanation of changing colors.  

I hope it is safe to mention what Jose' Arguelles had to say about Mayan harmonic math?  Ever since reading of harmonic math, I have been trying to put together color and music with math.  I don't have the memory and math skills to do this, but perhaps with more information,  this problem can be resolved?    Now clearly I have include the earth gobble and position of the sun, and how light affects us and plants into this map of reality.  


I want you all to know how much I appreciate what you said about science and the need to be open-minded.  I really do not believe the folks who jumped me for not meeting the science standard, had the ability to think anything thing through.  They know some rules for science and make themselves feel important by enforcing the rules, but I see no indication that those who do this the most, have any professional ties to a field of science.   I do not believe they are actually thinking things through, as the above explanation of light and position of rooms and good colors for those rooms, has been thought through.

One more thing, what is an experiment we might do to check out what Synder said of red light and plant growth? I have a couple of baby apple trees in a jar. The kids and I threw the apple seeds to in to see if the would grow and they did. They also lost their leaves as they should. I do know what will happen next year. I have a bit of problem because I don't know if I can get these two trees out of the jar without killing them. But if they live in the jar, could lighting be used to prevent the leaves from dropping next year?