Scivillage.com Casual Discussion Science Forum

i would like to put my questionable intellectual facilaties(my mind) into these subjects to bring forward movement.
facts theories & thoughts, perponderances and inconsequential passing thoughts....
please share your consideations in creative thinking on these issues.

i feel it is time we as modern society put collective considerable research money & minds into these.

this is predominantly what most would define as "fringe science"
whacky theories
idle thoughts etc...

share your musings on ideas that might effect help reduce interrupt or cure.
(this is not a joke or light hearted thread but sometimes being lighthearted can help discuss very serious problems and keep dialog moving).
appologies for any spelling or typo glitches i have no spell check currently.

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here is a news item i stumbled into which reminded me of some of the research i had been doing into dementia and alzhimiers a few years back.

the hard wiring side of neural sergery is well outside my understanding (though im always keen to read up on something)


https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zeal...g-dementia

I do workshops for people living with chronic diseases and was shocked by the high number of people with Parkinson's disease.  It is thought pesticides may contribute to this.

Quote:http://www.pdf.org/en/causes

The chemical or genetic trigger that starts the cell death process in dopamine neurons is the subject of intense scientific study. Many believe that by understanding the sequence of events that leads to the loss of dopamine cells, scientists will be able to develop treatments to stop or reverse the disease

Statistics for where people live are very problematic, because people move, and often they move into cities when their health needs increase.

Quote:https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2865395/

Bayesian mapping of Parkinson disease revealed a concentration in the Midwest and Northeast regions. Mean county incidence by quartile ranged from 279 to 3,111, and prevalence from 1,175 to 13,800 (per 100,000). Prevalence and incidence in urban counties were greater than in rural ones (p < 0.01). Cluster analysis supported a nonrandom distribution of both incident and prevalent Parkinson disease cases (p < 0.001).

I would add ALS to your list of diseases because from my point of view it is the same as Alzheimer's disease but the neuron damage is throughout the body instead of in the brain.   My grandmother had Alzheimer's disease and lived to almost 100.  My mother had ALS and was about 66 when she died.

(Nov 26, 2016 12:34 AM)RainbowUnicorn Wrote: [ -> ]i feel it is time we as modern society put collective considerable research money & minds into these. this is predominantly what most would define as "fringe science" --> whacky theories idle thoughts etc...

Circa 200 drugs have been tested which failed as potential Alzheimer treatments or remedies. Most myopically targeted amyloid plaque. That's probably "out there" enough in itself, along with the approval of drugs that don't really work in terms of their ultimate results.

http://www.healthnewsreview.org/2016/02/...-failures/

Quote:A drug may be approved by the FDA that doesn’t even work, or work very well, but which still costs hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. This might be fine for Dr. Longo and his company, which if it makes it through phase II may well be purchased by a large pharmaceutical company for further development and marketing of the drug.

Ineffective drugs are approved on the basis of “surrogate endpoints,” which we hope are indicators or markers for what will actually help people. Cholesterol levels are one example where these work, as lower levels predict less heart disease. But as journalist John Fauber has pointed out, many cancer drugs shrink tumors but end up not affecting survival or quality of life. (We profiled Fauber recently in one of our podcasts on health journalism standouts.)

This is a boon for drug companies, but not for patients, and some scientists think it discourages innovation, as companies tend to continue to take this easy route to approval, a sort of “teaching to the test” of FDA approval rather than towards clinically meaningful benefits.

(Nov 27, 2016 12:45 AM)C C Wrote: [ -> ]

(Nov 26, 2016 12:34 AM)RainbowUnicorn Wrote: [ -> ]i feel it is time we as modern society put collective considerable research money & minds into these. this is predominantly what most would define as "fringe science" --> whacky theories idle thoughts etc...

Circa 200 drugs have been tested which failed as potential Alzheimer treatments or remedies. Most myopically targeted amyloid plaque. That's probably "out there" enough in itself, along with the approval of drugs that don't really work in terms of their ultimate results.

http://www.healthnewsreview.org/2016/02/...-failures/

Quote:A drug may be approved by the FDA that doesn’t even work, or work very well, but which still costs hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. This might be fine for Dr. Longo and his company, which if it makes it through phase II may well be purchased by a large pharmaceutical company for further development and marketing of the drug.

Ineffective drugs are approved on the basis of “surrogate endpoints,” which we hope are indicators or markers for what will actually help people. Cholesterol levels are one example where these work, as lower levels predict less heart disease. But as journalist John Fauber has pointed out, many cancer drugs shrink tumors but end up not affecting survival or quality of life. (We profiled Fauber recently in one of our podcasts on health journalism standouts.)

This is a boon for drug companies, but not for patients, and some scientists think it discourages innovation, as companies tend to continue to take this easy route to approval, a sort of “teaching to the test” of FDA approval rather than towards clinically meaningful benefits.

...

Quote:This is a boon for drug companies, but not for patients, and some scientists think it discourages innovation, as companies tend to continue to take this easy route to approval, a sort of “teaching to the test” of FDA approval rather than towards clinically meaningful benefits.

Being a bit of a sci-fi nut i find it interesting that the predominant form of proposed technalogical develoment happens in a qwasi socialist/dictatorship format where collective wealth as a work force is used to produce the end result as a collective upgrade technalogically.
The pre-disposition to pure capitalist approach seems to be always founded on an up-front profit process.
how we as a society go about distributing the research cost against a market economy is quite complex in a real world working example.

im just musing on the area of cell death myloid etc where the genetic coding is not changed but the replication process is tampered with.
i assume to a point that the genetic coding ability to change the actual function of the cell is probably more soo where the actual change takes place.
as you elluded to simply re-producing something is not in effect fixing it but instead replicating its error.
assumedly the actual cause is probably quite different to compare to the symptomatic fix.
It Reminds me of some work done on P.T.S.D with MDMA and a link to potential nerve regrowth matched with CBT (cognative behavioural therapy).

It does feel somewhat newtonian to a point of simply attempting to add a binary response to the symptomatic diagnosis(cells not working produce more cells).
While stem cell research offers the ability to encode more of a certain type of cell, where the working controls are for that over all function might be different..

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(Nov 26, 2016 04:38 PM)Carol Wrote: [ -> ]I do workshops for people living with chronic diseases and was shocked by the high number of people with Parkinson's disease.  It is thought pesticides may contribute to this.

Given the potential litigious implications the baby boomers are a massive group who have been exposed to massive quantities of chemicals.
Estrogen simulating compounds is something that has been leached into water tables(town drinking water) baby bottles leaching into milk and wide spread use of plastics to heat & cook food in microwaves.
how this then effects girls and may potentially rbing on early puberty is potentially a reproductive health wild card.
Given in just this one example the potential interfearance in natural maturation of reproductive imperatives to the female it might well result in placing genetic stumbling blocks to all fertility.

Quote:http://www.pdf.org/en/causes

The chemical or genetic trigger that starts the cell death process in dopamine neurons is the subject of intense scientific study. Many believe that by understanding the sequence of events that leads to the loss of dopamine cells, scientists will be able to develop treatments to stop or reverse the disease

Statistics for where people live are very problematic, because people move, and often they move into cities when their health needs increase.  

not to mention the disconnectedness and profit orientated mercinary approach to health history.
i.e people are denied health care if the health provider can determine/prove they have pre existing conditions(generaly speaking) so there is a survival imperative to not track long term health of a patient which is in direct conflict of what doctors need and want.
Currently the ability to collect and hold health data is directly used to deny health care.

Quote:https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2865395/

Bayesian mapping of Parkinson disease revealed a concentration in the Midwest and Northeast regions. Mean county incidence by quartile ranged from 279 to 3,111, and prevalence from 1,175 to 13,800 (per 100,000). Prevalence and incidence in urban counties were greater than in rural ones (p < 0.01). Cluster analysis supported a nonrandom distribution of both incident and prevalent Parkinson disease cases (p < 0.001).

I would add ALS to your list of diseases because from my point of view it is the same as Alzheimer's disease but the neuron damage is throughout the body instead of in the brain.   My grandmother had Alzheimer's disease and lived to almost 100.  My mother had ALS and was about 66 when she died.

indeed i agree. having genetic advantages to combat such things would muddy the waters signifigantly, more soo when profit is the imperative to prove no link.

We seriously need to get the profiteering out of our health care. I know there is a strong argument that capitalism and making a profit means having a better health care system, but I think the negatives outweigh the positives. I mush rather have a doctor who cares about me, rather than his portfolio of stocks. Also, when it comes to our justice system, capitalism and profiteering has given us a very unjust justice system. I have experienced so much corruption in the legal system that it would be very hard for me to serve on jury.

I believe there are people who research medical things and doctor people and defend people in court for idealistic reasons, and I am favor of a social organization that encourages this while diminishing the impact of capitalism. I think we should all share the cost of medical care, and get rid of private insurers with all the problems that involves, however, the connection between insurance companies and the stock market makes correction very problematic.

(Nov 27, 2016 07:33 PM)Carol Wrote: [ -> ]We seriously need to get the profiteering out of our health care.  I know there is a strong argument that capitalism and making a profit means having a better health care system, but I think the negatives outweigh the positives.  I mush rather have a doctor who cares about me, rather than his portfolio of stocks.  Also, when it comes to our justice system, capitalism and profiteering has given us a very unjust justice system.   I have experienced so much corruption in the legal system that it would be very hard for me to serve on jury.  

I believe there are people who research medical things and doctor people and defend people in court for idealistic reasons, and I am favor of a social organization that encourages this while diminishing the impact of capitalism.  I think we should all share the cost of medical care, and get rid of private insurers with all the problems that involves, however, the connection between insurance companies and the stock market makes correction very problematic.

Controlling someones health gives great power and that power is used to make money.
ironically soo the actual working model of insurance based health insurnce is sold as a socialist construct exactly the same as taxation...
however... who pays the proportional highest cost is those who have the proportional lowest gain.

soo what does that tell society... ?
the value of life is not held as an equal value inside the same society regardles of laws and purported morals.
in theory based on the social care construct of religion, the more religous the more support of unified health care... however i think you will find it is in fact the reverse.
the more religous the more pro private health care.
thus denying the poor which is in direct opposition to the teachings of jesus christ.
quite fascinating.
and.. on the subject of cost based analysis the countrys who have unified health care have the highest standard of living.

NOTE i am inserting the term "unified health care" because the greedy haters wish to define health care for all as "free health care" when infact it is paid for by taxation.
thus throwing a  strawman arguement to pretend the balance of equity is based on being not paid for.

however the discussion on health care access for all Vs health care access for only the rich is a different conversation(all be it directly linked to the ability to advance medical science).
much like the unemployment rate being maniulated to hold down wages(and sell idology & broker power) the death rate from denying health care is also maniuplated for profit.
(trying not to thread jack myself here)

That was an expected reply. To clarify I get $100 for about 300 hours of work, and I give away books that are worth at least $20, and sometimes also CD's for relaxation and pedometers. The people who attend the workshops pay absolutely nothing and may receive bus passes and childcare money to attend the classes. I have also presented nutritional information at the Boys' and Girls' Club with no monetary compensation and would do more if asked.

Our government makes the effort to inform us of healthy living through education and the program I do. This is not as well organized as I would like. But back on the positive side, many people with Medicare also get free memberships to the gyms in their areas, and far, far more people get food stamps. My community is well organized to feed people who might otherwise go hungry, and in the Winter our shelter program expands to accommodate a large number of people. We also have a day work program, where people can show up and get connected with people willing to pay for labor. That is to say, through the government and nonprofit organizations we are making a huge effort to spread good health and good will.

Now, what are you doing for your health? You had posted you focus on your own improvement. Looking only at yourself and your stated goal, what are you doing fo your health? How does your life affect others? For example, when some of my neighbors tell me how much they exercise, it motivates me to exercise. My family is being moved in a positive way because I have made my life better. I guess we got here because I said we often have people who have Parkinson's disease in our workshops, and this has made me aware of the large number of people who live with Parkinson's disease. Which kicks back to research on the disease and the possibility that we need to strengthen environmental protection action.

was just reading this which some (Carol thought you might like to skim this) may find interesting

CNN Clinical Trials on Alzheimer's Disease conference in San Diego this week,

Reading about the plaque build up reminded me about Endocrine Disruptors sprayed over populations of people and saturated into the food supply & water supply.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endocrine_disruptor

has the widespread poisoning of little girls(pre puberty) with endocrine disruptors damaged the genes of the species ?
no one will ever do the reasearch to find out.
hhmm...

is the answer to parkinsons alzheimers and dementia tied up in the same box of
poisoned children unable to re-produce without genetic mutations and genetic dysfunctions ?

if it were true, would it ever be discovered and if so how and by whom ?

the profits and losses involved are soo huge they boggle my mind somewhat.
entire nations have gone to war over less.

... thoughts ?

(Dec 10, 2016 06:36 PM)RainbowUnicorn Wrote: [ -> ]was just reading this which some (Carol thought you might like to skim this) may find interesting

CNN Clinical Trials on Alzheimer's Disease conference in San Diego this week,

Reading about the plaque build up reminded me about Endocrine Disruptors sprayed over populations of people and saturated into the food supply & water supply.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endocrine_disruptor

has the widespread poisoning of little girls(pre puberty) with endocrine disruptors damaged the genes of the species ?
no one will ever do the reasearch to find out.
hhmm...

is the answer to parkinsons alzheimers and dementia tied up in the same box of
poisoned children unable to re-produce without genetic mutations and genetic dysfunctions ?

if it were true, would it ever be discovered and if so how and by whom ?

the profits and losses involved are soo huge they boggle my mind somewhat.
entire nations have gone to war over less.

... thoughts ?

There are many men with Parkinson disease in the workshops I do.  One couple came from farm territory in California and claimed this area has a higher level of Parkinson cases.  Research indicates this is possible.  

We like to think of farming as healthy and an occupation with good values, but if something kills insects or weeds, it might not be good for us.  I think for protecting farm labors are better today. Our history has not been good.

(Nov 28, 2016 05:07 PM)Carol Wrote: [ -> ]That was an expected reply.  To clarify I get $100 for about 300 hours of work, and I give away books that are worth at least $20, and sometimes also CD's for relaxation and pedometers.  The people who attend the workshops pay absolutely nothing and may receive bus passes and childcare money to attend the classes.   I have also presented nutritional information at the Boys' and Girls' Club with no monetary compensation and would do more if asked.

Our government makes the effort to inform us of healthy living through education and the program I do.  This is not as well organized as I would like.  But back on the positive side, many people with Medicare also get free memberships to the gyms in their areas, and far, far more people get food stamps.   My community is well organized to feed people who might otherwise go hungry, and in the Winter our shelter program expands to accommodate a large number of people.  We also have a day work program, where people can show up and get connected with people willing to pay for labor.  That is to say, through the government and nonprofit organizations we are making a huge effort to spread good health and good will.  

Now, what are you doing for your health?  You had posted you focus on your own improvement.  Looking only at yourself and your stated goal, what are you doing fo your health?   How does your life affect others?  For example, when some of my neighbors tell me how much they exercise, it motivates me to exercise.  My family is being moved in a positive way because I have made my life better.   I guess we got here because I said we often have people who have Parkinson's disease in our workshops, and this has made me aware of the large number of people who live with Parkinson's disease.  Which kicks back to research on the disease and the possibility that we need to strengthen environmental protection action.

Carol, you may have miss interpreted what i was pointing to in my post to which this is the reply.
i am referring to the health industry as a profit making investment process systemisedinto society as a profit mechanism for user pays.
i was in no way referring to you personally, or any other health sector worker.
As you point out in this post, it is often those who have the least who give the most.
if it werepossible to add up all the volunteer hours, unpaid extra hours and personal help that the profesional health workers and non profit organisations add, it would be considerable.
soo considerable that it is worth mentioning that as acost process that should be taken out of the massive profit margins that the private sector make as it is a business operating off the profiteering of society as a consumer.
no society = no profit (rather than the other way around to which some extremists seek to normalise).

Carol

Quote: I guess we got here because I said we often have people who have Parkinson's disease in our workshops, and this has made me aware of the large number of people who live with Parkinson's disease.  Which kicks back to research on the disease and the possibility that we need to strengthen environmental protection action.

indeed and while personal accountability is an ideal value in express terms, if we never bother to look at the system and see how we can make it better then nothing will ever change.
e.g where would we be if there was no environmental laws ?
yet if big business had its way there would be none(note big business includes down flow to agricultural sectors where things like DNA mutating chemicals are pumped into the water supply and food.)
while many would wish to control the discussion and make it go around in circles talkng about personal health choices to distract and avoid talking about environmental impacts DNA mutating chemicals and contaminated food & water supplys.
the real issue is the actual scientific reality of neuralogical diseases being addressed scientifically.

business wont seek to make a profit off curing something until the death rate becomes soo great that the government offers up free money to them from the dead and dying people.
such is capitalism.