Scivillage.com Casual Discussion Science Forum

Full Version: Fun with Philosophy
You're currently viewing a stripped down version of our content. View the full version with proper formatting.
Pages: 1 2
Imagination is the wave function and its collapse is reality. Maybe that's the same as subconscious to conscious? Woke up this morning with that thought, don't know why. In an effort to be brief I'll capsulate it somewhat. Remember I only thought of this a few hours ago when I woke up, plus I'm no physicist/philosopher but I can imagine many things as you'll see. First time I've ever tried to put this morning's thought into words.

I suppose it all had to do with a discussion regarding thought experiments. When using my imagination I am able to conjure up just about anything, even events that defy the laws of physics or cannot be proven. However when not in use I am confronted with observation/reality. Analogously, can I equate imagination and all its possibilities with the sum of all probabilities for a particle except the one that manifest itself when observed/measured? I say that because it stands to reason for me that, of a myriad of possibilities, one will become reality. However there must be other possibilities that are very very close. It's these possibilities that didn't quite make it that I'm thinking of.

Obviously I'm having a bit of fun here so should I add that the closer a probability is to reality the easier it is to believe? Perhaps a certain fuzziness exists between the imagined and what's real and I'll call it the Philosophical Zone. A place where reality is not quite complete but there's still enough of it around to form some sort of consensus/thought experiment/religion etc based on, you guessed it, what's really observed. IOW's you could for instance say something like 'I prayed to god for rain last night and today its raining' and use it as evidence for a god. That kind of stuff, close and with a basis in reality but not quite the real thing.
You’re talking about the philosophy of probability, not just abstract vs. concrete thinking, right?
(Oct 27, 2016 06:55 PM)Zinjanthropos Wrote: [ -> ]A place where reality is not quite complete but there's still enough of it around to form some sort of consensus/thought experiment/religion etc based on, you guessed it, what's really observed. IOW's you could for instance say something like 'I prayed to god for rain last night and today its raining' and use it as evidence for a god. That kind of stuff, close and with a basis in reality but not quite the real thing.


Barring the eventual extinction of humankind via our being engineered into something posthuman which eliminates the natural randomness and environmentally acquired contingencies of traits... There will continue to be folk who are receptive to "cryptic origins" for events. Because they're just natively wired with a disposition for that or their sub-cultural indoctrination is so deep that it's equivalent to the same. [*]

The forces, powers, and principles which public institutions should accept are those that are subject to regularity, dependability or to being reliably harnessed (i.e., what gets classified as "natural" or whatever label for an era). Those usually seem to be a consequence of the relational inter-dependence of things / agencies in the cosmos as mediated across space (with the eccentricities studied by quantum physics being a possible exception).

Whereas so-called "cryptic causes" would by definition be converted / blended into "how affairs work in nature". At an initial or simple level of consideration, they would seem to stand-out only via unusual coincidences (which might entail long sequences of such to truly qualify). Those could be statistically explained / expected, but that again would just be another facet of their (believed) extraordinary origin being "hidden" via the conversion into "how nature functions".

Cryptic causation or sources should purely be a matter of personal interpretation and value, maybe extended to small groups of like-minded individuals. The beliefs can't exclusively be demonstrated to be the case since there will usually be alternative, "ordinary" reasons available for them (when they're not left hanging as loose ends, a "give-up" or "go-around" situation).

If cryptic affairs were the case (not just interpretative preferences for _X_ circumstances), they would still be irregular / unpredictable and lack dependability, thus eliminating them from laboratory validation, mainstream acceptance, and industrial usage. Laws could apparently not be abstracted / inferred from cryptic occurrences since natural laws / regularities have universal extent over at least some applicable domain and are reliable.

- - - - - -

[*] On the flip-side or for the sake of balance, there may be perspectives and research contending that there are preset or societal-molded tendencies for skepticism.
(Oct 27, 2016 11:21 PM)Secular Sanity Wrote: [ -> ]You’re talking about the philosophy of probability, not just abstract vs. concrete thinking, right?

All I'm saying is of all the probables, the vast majority play no part in reality but there are some that are very close to the truth of what's real.  These close to the truth possibilities can certainly exist within our minds (imaginations). They are based on observed reality for the most part but there's an element(s) of untruthfulness in them that prevents them being real. 

Einstein's thought experiment had him chasing a light beam, which in reality is an exercise in futility and impossible. Nevertheless it did bring us to a new awareness, one that could be tested and validated (for now at least). I think thought experiments are wonderful tools for science but they are only close to the truth possibilities.

Does philosophy belong strictly within the realm of possibilities? Does myself and everyone else have to accept untestable remote possiblities, no matter how bizarre, as having even the most slightest of chances of being true?
(Oct 28, 2016 03:54 AM)Zinjanthropos Wrote: [ -> ]Does philosophy belong strictly within the realm of possibilities? Does myself and everyone else have to accept untestable remote possiblities, no matter how bizarre, as having even the most slightest of chances of being true?

No, and philosophy doesn't require you accept anything even remotely like that.

[Image: 512px-Classical_definition_of_Kno.svg.png]

Like I asked elsewhere, who said religion/soul was knowledge? Both are beliefs, and both could possibly be true, but at best they are unjustified truth...not knowledge.
(Oct 28, 2016 03:54 AM)Zinjanthropos Wrote: [ -> ]Does myself and everyone else have to accept untestable remote possiblities, no matter how bizarre, as having even the most slightest of chances of being true?

Doctrines or schools of thought can be invented which systematically deny the existence or possibility of _X_ a priori, or dismiss their practicality. Certain strains of positivism in the past were an example of some scientists and philosophers doing just that. Ernst Mach continued to dismiss atom-related hypotheses as metaphysics even after they became legitimate theories in science. Or deemed treating such entities as "real" to be metaphysical gibberish, anyway; not necessarily their usefulness toward the end.

But at any rate, being a member of those philosophies provides a formal excuse for opting-out of the possibility of _X_ and other unknowns in future context and any other modes / conditions. Logical positivism and some of those older varieties fell out of dominant favor back in the '50s and '60s. But they still have adherents.

Quote:Does philosophy belong strictly within the realm of possibilities?


No. There may not even be a clear sub-genre of it that deals exclusively with such a subject (alone), much less philosophy as a whole. Here's an explication of what "philosophical activity" broadly is:

A particular system of "proper thinking" (logic / reason, school of thought, etc) relied itself upon a more primal level of cerebration to create it and justify or argue for its implementation. That "prior in rank" level is philosophical / intellectual activity in general. As considered with a bare minimum of preset tenets and dogmatic assumptions, whether "folk" or "formal" (not strictly its modern academic versions or its ancient equivalents, IOW). Like a tool that can be used for either gardening or killing someone, philosophical / intellectual activity is used in the verbal defense and offense of everything (including both science and religion). It depends upon the motives of the "handler" as to what agenda the "tool" serves.

A quick way to make the distinction between "natural science" and "philosophy" (of today) is that science inclines toward investigating the empirical events, entities, and situations of the world which (in the beginning) lack dependency upon description, language, or artificial modes of representation. Whereas philosophy's primary target is those artificial arrangements of knowledge rather than the sensible conditions beforehand that are converted into such.

IOW, contemporary philosophy contributes to and investigates, apprehends, evaluates (especially in terms of internal consistency and coherence) our established concepts and the preset affairs of those narrower, specialized divisions of knowledge, practice, and enterprise themselves (like science). It even studies itself (meta-philosophy).

A longer elaboration:

Rather than information which is obtained by observation, like a new bug found under a rock or a new galaxy discovered via telescope... Philosophical activity concerns the focus on, study of, and continued contribution to the invented knowledge of humankind. Our concepts, systems, methods, literature, formal institutions, schools of thought and programs for practices / pursuits. Which are supported by or also "fall out of" items like reason, effectiveness / usefulness or practical development over time, and traditions which made civilization possible (they're usually not of arbitrary origins, IOW).

For instance: The preset parameters, suppositions and "oughts" of procedure which science operates under would be an example of its own "philosophy" or prescriptive furniture (what was engendered by philosophical activity rather than discovered under a bush). Any discipline or organized endeavor has such a scheme for guidance and identity -- by definition they do not consist of random doings.

"Science" was once "natural philosophy", a subgenre of philosophy [the classic conception of philosophy] devoted to cataloging the empirical content of the world and offering explanations for it via the relational inter-dependence of those contents. Eventually NP grew so diverse that it was treated as separate. But since philosophical activity is the primal generalization of knowledge-related happenings ("prior in rank"), science can still be regarded as residing beneath that umbrella. Especially when attention is given to its presets or preconditions for operation, and interpretations of what some of its results and theories mean and their consequences.

The classic branches or subcategories often attributed to philosophy were just the earliest systems of humankind which it focused on (ethics, aesthetics, logic, metaphysics, etc) rather than being a strict territory of subjects which it is limited to. The old momentum of Anglophone academia (including its Western biases) still reflexively tries to keep that stereotype alive. But today it is recognized that there is a division of philosophy for just about everything, including philosophy of architecture. Philosophy of science is even broken down into multiple subgenres, like philosophy of biology and philosophy of neuroscience.

- - - - - - -

"Scientism" (not science) is a typical dispenser of misconceptions and strawmen pertaining to philosophy (the dogma can have its advocates among scientists, though, in regard to their personal views / lives). This refers to "scientism" as non-pejorative, which is a separate issue and usage / purpose of the label employed to stigmitize and dismiss valid scientific work or opinions.

"Scientism" is a classification for what varies from an informal to formal ideological perspective / movement, depending on whether or not it is identified with positivism or is a loose aggregation of tendencies of which positivism is one ancestor. Scientism treats / promotes science as the sole type and medium of knowledge. Since scientism is a philosophical stance itself (a prescription of "what to do" formulated / invented by people -- not "discovered" under a bush, etc), it is contradictory or is trivially not asserting anything meaningful (is a "duh"). I.e., equating to something like "This school of thought should replace there being such schools of thought."

Some contemporary physicists (infected with the scientism impulse) will occasionally complain about how useless philosophy of science (PoS) is to them. A feat of nescience which misses the whole point that PoS is a formal study and understanding of what science is rather than a council of overseers trying to dictate to them. When scientists define science to the public, they actually recruit assorted interpretations of their field which have been outputted by PoS or bygone eras of general philosophy -- especially from scientists of the past who doubled as philosophers of science. Physicists of the early 20th century and 19th century were more much informed about the nature of philosophy, even publishing their own treatises in that context.
There's a philosophy for just about everything human. No reason to philosophize about anything else. Can't say if other animals philosophize and there's no philosophy about anything naturally occurring or objects for that matter.  I could philosophize about the most ridiculous human action to the most depraved, there's nothing to stop me. Maybe I'm wrong and people do philosophize about volcanic eruptions or bears, why not I guess. 

What are philosophical thoughts based on? Observation. Trouble is that philosophy is not an exact science nor a discipline yet still requires observation. How close is observation to experimental science? I could tell you that in order to live a good life that you should stay away from fast women. The only way you could possibly form such a philosophy is from direct observation, however there's no chance of that ever being completely true for everyone and that's what philosophy is to me, close but no cigar. Difficult for me to take it seriously.

I think it's great that we can formulate thoughts that have little bearing on what's actually observed and because of that, philosophy is like a cartoon to me, I can do what I want with it. Still, imaginative as we are, there's no escaping what's observed.
You're still clueless I'm afraid. Philosophy underpins all science, because philosophy is the origin of logic. How do you know that what you observe actually exists in an independent world? How can you justify that it does? These are some of the fundamental questions philosophy deals with. You may be happy just saying "seeing is believing", but then people claim to see all kinds of things that cannot be justified as reality. This is why philosophy led to natural philosophy, which became science.

Most of natural philosophy has become the natural sciences, while moral and metaphysical philosophy are still independent. All branches of philosophy rely on logic. And even where we have real world observations, our inferences must still comport with logic. If we find some science that seems contradictory, logic tells us that it's not "just magic" but that we are missing something. And it's philosophy and logic that help us figure those out.
(Oct 31, 2016 07:01 PM)Syne Wrote: [ -> ]You're still clueless I'm afraid. Philosophy underpins all science, because philosophy is the origin of logic. How do you know that what you observe actually exists in an independent world? How can you justify that it does? These are some of the fundamental questions philosophy deals with. You may be happy just saying "seeing is believing", but then people claim to see all kinds of things that cannot be justified as reality. This is why philosophy led to natural philosophy, which became science.

Most of natural philosophy has become the natural sciences, while moral and metaphysical philosophy are still independent. All branches of philosophy rely on logic. And even where we have real world observations, our inferences must still comport with logic. If we find some science that seems contradictory, logic tells us that it's not "just magic" but that we are missing something. And it's philosophy and logic that help us figure those out.

Ahh.... The justification of philosophy. Apologies to other thread respondents for what I am about to say. 

Syne, you're too easy. LOOK at the title of this thread. 

Why do you take my words seriously? Why do you feel the need to defend philosophy? Why did it elicit insulting behavior from you? Why are you so predictable? 

To that I say: Gee, I wonder what gets under the skin of most philosophers. I wonder how passionate some people are about it. I wonder how far will they go to defend. Not easy creating claptrap that evokes the expected response. I feel that sometimes people need a slice of humble pie because personally, your self-righteousness is a bit much.

Anybody who read the OP's first paragraph can see it's abstruse plus the word FUN is in the title for crying out loud. You just assume and then assume some more. Too bad, you're no different than the vast majority of philosophical adherents. I was waiting for the insult and you have obliged. Do you really expect to find a treatise on philosophy in a science forum? You know that's highly improbable, you're just waiting for the chance to pounce. Hard to know what's real on the internet, n'est ce pas? I was hoping for something special here, instead it's the same old rebuttal. I think I'll go start a religion next. 

Studying philosophy at university comes in handy sometimes.  Wink
That's the thing about online discussions. People generally judge the motives of others based on their own motivations. Hence, I assume, until proven otherwise, that most posters are honest and sincere. I took the "Fun" in the title, along with the OP, as "poking fun at", and none of your posts, including this last, give me any indication that you know anything about philosophy. If you were just looking to get a rise out of someone...that is the definition of trolling (and I'm unsure how the admin feels about that).

Knowing now that you are disingenuous, this whole "I was only joking" spiel just seems to be the typical refrain of those caught arguing out of ignorance. If that's not the case, I'd love to see any indication that you actually know anything about philosophy. If you can't indicate any real understanding of philosophy....you should probably ask for your money back. And perhaps that education is even more lacking than that. The evidence in this thread demonstrates you are clueless (and you seem to have even admitted to intentionally forwarding that perception, e.g. "claptrap"). Now you can infer that as insult, but if so, that would seem to mean that you were ignorant of your own intention. LOL.

But giving you the benefit of the doubt, I'm glad you get a kick out of feeling like you can manipulate people by subverting their optimism in the good faith of others. Probably a profitable skill on the internet, where gullible people will often do more than just debate anonymously. Didn't get under my skin at all. I enjoy anything, claptrap or not, that I can use as mental resistance training. If you want to take my observation, of what you claim you intended to portray, to be insult, by all means assume you've accomplished your goal. Congrats.

If you're sincerely looking for something to "convince you" about philosophy, you're not alone. Until I studied the subject enough, I often scoffed philosophy as vague and self-aggrandizing as well.
Pages: 1 2