Scivillage.com Casual Discussion Science Forum

Hmmm...public opinion (consensus fallacy) versus facts. Objective-minded people know which one is paramount.

Do you think it's consensus fallacy? it is hard to believe that laws would be passed condemning these practices, if they were solely based on public opinion.

Laws are all about consensus. At least in a representative government, people choose the legislators who then make the law, and the legislators pander to the majority consensus in their district to get elected. I'm not sure where it is you imagine any kind of objective ethics enters into that process.

There is one aspect of veganism that I find rather puzzling.

Dogs and cats were not evolved to eat an exclusively vegan diet even though they incorporate some vegetation by various means, so should the owner wish to be vegan or vegetarian, that is fine but it would seem quite unethical to impose these parameters on the pet, in my opinion.

If the animals were not treated inhumanely, would you consider it ethical to eat meat?

How do we determine which species are entitled to a decent life?  Is it through their capacity to feel pain? How do we rank them?  How do we determine what a good life is for each type of species?

Could universal veganism cause more harm?  What are your thoughts on Mike Archer’s article?

Ordering the vegetarian meal? There’s more animal blood on your hands

Veganism isn't about eating veggies, it's about lessening or even eradicating suffering in sentient animals. Whether all animals with brains or central nervous system are aware is another topic altogether. If the only meat we ate was lab grown then it would be OK for consumption since no suffering was involved. This is something extremist Vegans believe is possible with today's existing technology, meat farming. I do believe meat has already successfully been cultivated under lab conditions.

It honestly comes down to a personal decision - and one that I've come to because I choose to see my decisions, as small as they might be in the grander scheme of things, as having an effect on those around me. Nothing we do or don't do, stays in a vacuum, but I can only act according to my own convictions. The purpose of this thread was to share why I've personally come to this cross roads, and what my next steps might be in terms of moving towards a vegan lifestyle. I don't know if I'll become entirely vegan, but for now, it seems like a worthwhile goal. Like so many moral dilemmas in life, we can't expect people to choose what we choose. What is prudent, is looking at information and not dismissing it based on biases.

But, it comes down to a personal decision, and even making small changes can have an impact. I think we believe that changing the world starts with a government, or with a large organization, and we don't see how our actions can make small differences that add up over time. I'm not solely speaking about this topic, but I'm sure there are issues that move you as this has moved me, and you are taking personal strides towards change. If it's important to you, and you've arrived at your decision through facts and logic (not based on emotions) then, it probably is the right road for you to take.

(Oct 11, 2016 05:54 PM)Secular Sanity Wrote: [ -> ]Could universal veganism cause more harm?  What are your thoughts on Mike Archer’s article?

Ordering the vegetarian meal? There’s more animal blood on your hands

Wow. That's an amazing article full of data I'd never seen on the real animal/environment impact of crops.

This means 2.2 animals killed for each 100kg of useable animal protein produced.
...
Therefore, at least 55 sentient animals die to produce 100kg of useable plant protein: 25 times more than for the same amount of rangelands beef.

Does the shortened lifespan of wild rodents, snakes, etc. matter to vegans? Or is it just the cuter animals?

Baby mice left in the nest sing to their mothers — a kind of crying song to call them back. For every female killed by the poisons we administer, on average five to six totally dependent baby mice will, despite singing their hearts out to call their mothers back home, inevitably die of starvation, dehydration or predation.

(Oct 11, 2016 09:58 PM)Zinjanthropos Wrote: [ -> ]Veganism isn't about eating veggies, it's about lessening or even eradicating suffering in sentient animals. Whether all animals with brains or central nervous system are aware is another topic altogether. If the only meat we ate was lab grown then it would be OK for consumption since no suffering was involved. This is something extremist Vegans believe is possible with today's existing technology, meat farming. I do believe meat has already successfully been cultivated under lab conditions.

This is an interesting point - let's say that we know for certain that animals aren't aware of the pain being inflicted upon them, would it still be unethical to abuse them? I say yes. Just like it would be unethical to abuse a comatose person in a hospital bed. We are aware of the pain we could potentially be causing. Even if some may think humans are transferring their experiences of pain onto animals, it still would seem wrong to abuse animals. Keep in mind, there are humane farms that subscribe to the ethical treatment of animals, and that would be a much better alternative if one doesn't wish to part with meat/dairy.

The whole debate of veganism becomes mute if you were to reside north of 60 and are of First Nations or Inuit descent and living a traditional lifestyle.

You would starve to death 9 months of the year if you were relying strictly on vegetable matter because you could not generate sufficient body heat to survive.

So when having the debate around what we choose to eat, we need to respectfully accept that for some, what they eat has less to do with morality and everything to do with availability.

I work at the food supply crossroads for all of the Yukon and part of Northern BC and even Southwest Alaska. Most of our food arrives by truck from warehouses that are 1300 miles away and of course the food may travel twice that far from it's source before reaching the warehouse. Go to a location like Old Crow and check out the price and availability of food items there.

Quote:A two-litre carton of milk at the Northern Store two weeks ago was selling for $8.39. A bag of apples cost $17.39

And that was on sale.

http://yukon-news.com/business/food-pric...-community

Morality around food choices is a wonderful option to have but for many, it is a luxury they cannot afford.