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while i personally oppose religious teaching in schools unless the school is a coed secular school which teaches about religion rather than just preaches only 1 religion or in dare i muse a bi-partisan cold war maunchhausen by proxy vicarious suicidal aging parent etc etc... between Christianity and Islam.
Schools should be places of education & intellect not monotheistic pre filtered pre ordained outcomes of generic religious mental incarceration.
Balance does not come as a compulsory hallelujah moment during Bible class 202 at 2pm on a Tuesday.
Balance comes from following a Role model of thinking. how someone solves problems, creates games, plays games, adheres and interacts with rules and people around them using logic.
suicidal faith in the complete power of one person is inherantly flawed to create serial killers.
(Nov 18, 2016 02:35 PM)Ben the Donkey Wrote: [ -> ]
(Nov 17, 2016 04:49 PM)Carol Wrote: [ -> ]Syne's argument kind of ruined the meaning of my reply to you Ben, so I will use a quote that I believe is one of the best explanations of the origin purpose of education in the US.  


Quote:"When we ask about the relationship of a liberal education to citizenship, we are asking a question with a long history in the Western philosophical tradition. We are drawing on Socrates' concept of 'the examined life,' on Aristotle's notions of reflective citizenship, and above all on Greek and Roman Stoic notions of an education that is 'liberal' in that it liberates the mind from bondage of habit and custom, producing people who can function with sensitivity and alertness as citizens of the whole world." --Martha Nussbaum, Cultivating Humanity: A Classical Defense of Reform in Liberal Education, 1998

That quote is from this web site  https://aacu.org/leap/what-is-a-liberal-education and it also quotes Jefferson and Lincoln.  We did not introduce vocational training until 1917 when we were preparing for WWII and at this point we retained liberal education and held education for citizenship as a priority.  However, in 1958 as part of the Military Industrial Complex actions taken by the Eisenhower administration, that education was replaced by education for technology for military and industrial purpose, and there are huge social, economic and political ramifications to this, leading to major social breakdown, reactionary politics, crippling the legislative process, and causing economic dependency.   I see this not only as a fight over which purpose education will serve but as a fight for the democracy we inherited.

I was in school when the act was implemented and in Los Angeles.  We were living in fear of an atomic attack and my teachers were walking around in shock.  Not until about 3rd period did a teacher explain the purpose of education had been changed.  From now on students would be prepared for a technological society with unknown values, and we should thinking of how we will live when robots replace the need for labor.  Too bad, our education did not continue preparing us as liberal education once did because here we are in an amoral society, with a very fragile economy, afraid of tomorrow, and facing a very unknown future with Trump.   Kind of like Germany when Hitler took control of Germany.
I can see where you're coming from, and I agree with your premise in that education can lose grounding if it becomes too far removed from a philosophical basis - but if the issue is one of educational philosophy, why one religion in particular?
Teach philosophy, not religion. Anything else is simple pandering. 

Also, and probably OT - " but as a fight for the democracy we inherited" is a direct indictment on the left in the USA after the Trump election. Quite frankly, from an outside observers perspective, it seems to me that the American Left has completely lost sight of what their "democracy" is all about... one did not see the same reaction from the right when a black man was elected president not long ago.

The reaction from the Left in the USA recently has me more frightened for your countries future than the fact of Trump as president. And that is saying something.

Wanted to post more on the first point, but not tonight.

I am sorry, I do not understand what you said about "indictment on the left"?  I do understand the people who supported Trump being a threat.  I think those people are the result of the 1958 National Defense Education Act that ended the transmission of our culture and left moral training to the church.   I believe only when our democracy is defended in the classroom is it defended, and that was brought to an end.

I think it is important to teach our young how to think.  For me, that means teaching them progressively more complex concepts, especially those related to democracy, and the higher order thinking skills.  I think history is an important part of education.  

Philosophy is not a cause for killing people and war, and religion is.   However, I strongly doubt all states would tolerate education in religion.   Some states might, but it is doubtful.  A focus on history and philosophy might have a better chance.

(Nov 18, 2016 11:34 PM)RainbowUnicorn Wrote: [ -> ]while i personally oppose religious teaching in schools unless the school is a coed secular school which teaches about religion rather than just preaches only 1 religion or in dare i muse a bi-partisan cold war maunchhausen by proxy vicarious suicidal aging parent etc etc...  between Christianity and Islam.
Schools should be places of education & intellect not monotheistic pre filtered pre ordained outcomes of generic religious mental incarceration.
Balance does not come as a compulsory hallelujah moment during Bible class 202 at 2pm on a Tuesday.
Balance comes from following a Role model of thinking. how someone solves problems, creates games, plays games, adheres and interacts with rules and people around them using logic.
suicidal faith in the complete power of one person is inherantly flawed to create serial killers.

I don't think anyone was suggesting schools teach a particular faith, but rather teach about religions.  There are so many people who hold false ideas about this or that religious group, and these false ideas tend to lead to problems. For this reason, we need to learn of other religions.
I see no reason to teach the religion of the criminally insane to anyone. Murderous scum on a level not seen before, no one is safe. Enough pandering, time to get tough.
(Nov 23, 2016 03:43 AM)Zinjanthropos Wrote: [ -> ]I see no reason to teach the religion of the criminally insane to anyone. Murderous scum on a level not seen before, no one is safe. Enough pandering, time to get tough.

Some people want to protect and excuse that ideology. They justify it that the enemy of their enemy is their friend.
(Nov 23, 2016 03:43 AM)Zinjanthropos Wrote: [ -> ]I see no reason to teach the religion of the criminally insane to anyone. Murderous scum on a level not seen before, no one is safe. Enough pandering, time to get tough.

Are you referring to Christians?  I remember the invasion of Iraq and the Christian Right believing President Bush was doing the will of God.  Before this, I avoided discussions of religion, and now I jump in whenever I get a chance. Religion is good for war and war is good religion.  

However, we should know not all Christians and not all Muslims have agreed with these acts of war.  However, both have very bloody histories.  Except for the Jewish fight for Israel in Palestine, I don't think they have been in wars since Rome, and again it is was the same fight for land and self-rule.  What the Jews have done to Palestinians is about the same as people in the US did to Native Americans.  Both believing they were doing God's will and fulfilling their destiny.  I would like to see all religious people be accountable for the horrors committed in the name of their understanding of God.
(Nov 23, 2016 05:00 PM)Carol Wrote: [ -> ]What the Jews have done to Palestinians is about the same as people in the US did to Native Americans.  Both believing they were doing God's will and fulfilling their destiny.  I would like to see all religious people be accountable for the horrors committed in the name of their understanding of God.

You sound like an anti-Semite.

The residents of Palestine are called "Palestinians". Since Palestine includes both modern day Israel and Jordan both Arab and Jewish residents of this area were referred to as "Palestinians".

It was only after the Jews re-inhabited their historic homeland of Judea and Samaria, that the myth of an Arab Palestinian nation was created and marketed worldwide. Jews come from Judea, not Palestinians. There is no language known as Palestinian, or any Palestinian culture distinct from that of all the Arabs in the area. There has never been a land known as Palestine governed by Palestinians. "Palestinians" are Arabs indistinguishable from Arabs throughout the Middle East. The great majority of Arabs in greater Palestine and Israel share the same culture, language and religion.

Much of the Arab population in this area actually migrated into Israel and Judea and Samaria from the surrounding Arab countries in the past 100 years. The rebirth of Israel was accompanied by economic prosperity for the region. Arabs migrated to this area to find employment and enjoy the higher standard of living. In documents not more than hundred years, the area is described as a scarcely populated region. Jews by far were the majority in Jerusalem over the small Arab minority. Until the Oslo agreement the major source of income for Arab residents was employment in the Israeli sector. To this day, many Arabs try to migrate into Israel with various deceptions to become a citizen of Israel.

Even the Chairman of the Palestinian Authority, Arafat himself, is not a "Palestinian". He was born in Egypt. The famous "Palestinian covenant" states that Palestinians are "an integral part of the Arab nation" -- a nation which is blessed with a sparsely populated land mass 660 times the size of tiny Israel (Judea, Samaria and Gaza included). - http://www.science.co.il/History-Palestine.php


Palestinians are just a proxy that the surrounding Muslim countries use for propaganda in their often expressed goal of Jewish genocide. Since the Muslim countries have way more land and oil, their motive can only be racial hate.
(Nov 23, 2016 05:00 PM)Carol Wrote: [ -> ]
(Nov 23, 2016 03:43 AM)Zinjanthropos Wrote: [ -> ]I see no reason to teach the religion of the criminally insane to anyone. Murderous scum on a level not seen before, no one is safe. Enough pandering, time to get tough.

Are you referring to Christians?  I remember the invasion of Iraq and the Christian Right believing President Bush was doing the will of God.  Before this, I avoided discussions of religion, and now I jump in whenever I get a chance. Religion is good for war and war is good religion.  

However, we should know not all Christians and not all Muslims have agreed with these acts of war.  However, both have very bloody histories.  Except for the Jewish fight for Israel in Palestine, I don't think they have been in wars since Rome, and again it is was the same fight for land and self-rule.  What the Jews have done to Palestinians is about the same as people in the US did to Native Americans.  Both believing they were doing God's will and fulfilling their destiny.  I would like to see all religious people be accountable for the horrors committed in the name of their understanding of God.

I refer to anyone who carries out criminal acts. If satanic axe wielders chop up a school full of kids, would you lobby for Satanism being part of the curriculum? I can't think of a worse reason to die than for religion, or because of it. 

I think I've come to the conclusion that those who unlawfully commit or authorize murderous acts in the name of religion are just plain criminals. I couldn't give two damns about their religion. The last thing I'm going to do is teach a kid the religion of a murderer. Perhaps teaching a class in how to protect yourself from an axe wielding madman makes more sense.....but hey, that's just my macabre side speaking.
(Nov 24, 2016 03:31 AM)Zinjanthropos Wrote: [ -> ]
(Nov 23, 2016 05:00 PM)Carol Wrote: [ -> ]
(Nov 23, 2016 03:43 AM)Zinjanthropos Wrote: [ -> ]I see no reason to teach the religion of the criminally insane to anyone. Murderous scum on a level not seen before, no one is safe. Enough pandering, time to get tough.

Are you referring to Christians?  I remember the invasion of Iraq and the Christian Right believing President Bush was doing the will of God.  Before this, I avoided discussions of religion, and now I jump in whenever I get a chance. Religion is good for war and war is good religion.  

However, we should know not all Christians and not all Muslims have agreed with these acts of war.  However, both have very bloody histories.  Except for the Jewish fight for Israel in Palestine, I don't think they have been in wars since Rome, and again it is was the same fight for land and self-rule.  What the Jews have done to Palestinians is about the same as people in the US did to Native Americans.  Both believing they were doing God's will and fulfilling their destiny.  I would like to see all religious people be accountable for the horrors committed in the name of their understanding of God.

I refer to anyone who carries out criminal acts. If satanic axe wielders chop up a school full of kids, would you lobby for Satanism being part of the curriculum? I can't think of a worse reason to die than for religion, or because of it. 

I think I've come to the conclusion that those who unlawfully commit or authorize murderous acts in the name of religion are just plain criminals. I couldn't give two damns about their religion. The last thing I'm going to do is teach a kid the religion of a murderer. Perhaps teaching a class in how to protect yourself from an axe wielding madman makes more sense.....but hey, that's just my macabre side speaking.

There are fanatics in all the God of Abraham religions, and they do not represent the majority.   

Islam is a very peaceful religion.   Whenever they mention a prophets' name they say ]Peace be upon him".  They avoid arguments and they lived in peace with the Jews until Zionism, and the refusal of Jews to stop bring more Jews into Palestine and limit the size of their population as Britan said they must do.  Britain had unarmed everyone, but the Jews had connections with the US and they smuggled in weapons following the second world war and used them against the British as well as against the Muslims.  Britain withdrew from Palestine and neither Britain nor the US demanded the UN decisions be enforced in Palestine and then CIA interference with Iran's politics during the Eisenhower administration was another blow against Islam. I know this isn't about the education of Islam, but I think it is a necessary explanation the problem.  

The US interest in the region is strategic and about the control of the movement of oil, and other trade.  The US interest in the region increased when Britain withdrew, the USSR began moving in.  No one cared about Palestinians nor the people of Iran, any more than the US cared about the people of Iraq when it invaded Iraq prepared to defend the oil wells but not the people.     
 
Syne, I am no more anti-semitic than I am anti-Christian or anti-Muslim.  I think the God of Abraham religions are problematic because their shared mythology is that there is a God who can violate the laws of nature, and who has favorite people and commanded the Jews to invade land and kill everyone there, to claim that land as their own.  Islam has more commands against war than Judaism or Christianity, but it is working with the same mythology of a jealous, fearsome and revengeful God.   However, I am anti Zionism and so are some Jews.  That means, I do not believe Europeans had a God-given right to take the land of native Americans, nor the land of the Palestinians.   

By the way, Muslim Arabs are also Semitic.     
If you teach a kid the religion of murderers and expect them to understand why a religion allows homicide then is it going to make him/her say ''if that's what your religion wants then who am I to stop it?' I don't think so. Perhaps, more than likely, the murderous religion will be hated even more. Dunno.
(Nov 24, 2016 04:10 PM)Carol Wrote: [ -> ]Islam is a very peaceful religion.   Whenever they mention a prophets' name they say ]Peace be upon him".  They avoid arguments and they lived in peace with the Jews until Zionism, and the refusal of Jews to stop bring more Jews into Palestine and limit the size of their population as Britan said they must do.  Britain had unarmed everyone, but the Jews had connections with the US and they smuggled in weapons following the second world war and used them against the British as well as against the Muslims.  Britain withdrew from Palestine and neither Britain nor the US demanded the UN decisions be enforced in Palestine and then CIA interference with Iran's politics during the Eisenhower administration was another blow against Islam. I know this isn't about the education of Islam, but I think it is a necessary explanation the problem.  

The US interest in the region is strategic and about the control of the movement of oil, and other trade.  The US interest in the region increased when Britain withdrew, the USSR began moving in.  No one cared about Palestinians nor the people of Iran, any more than the US cared about the people of Iraq when it invaded Iraq prepared to defend the oil wells but not the people.     
 
Syne, I am no more anti-semitic than I am anti-Christian or anti-Muslim.  I think the God of Abraham religions are problematic because their shared mythology is that there is a God who can violate the laws of nature, and who has favorite people and commanded the Jews to invade land and kill everyone there, to claim that land as their own.  Islam has more commands against war than Judaism or Christianity, but it is working with the same mythology of a jealous, fearsome and revengeful God.   However, I am anti Zionism and so are some Jews.  That means, I do not believe Europeans had a God-given right to take the land of native Americans, nor the land of the Palestinians.   

By the way, Muslim Arabs are also Semitic.     

You're naive if you think saying "peace" a lot means that you're peaceful. Would you equally believe the car salesman who keeps saying he's honest? They do believe in peace, but according to the Quran, only for Muslims and only after all the infidel have been killed off, enslaved, or ruled. There are no Jews allowed to hold government office in any Muslim countries (where Islam is typically a theocracy that runs the government), while Muslims routinely hold government office in Israel.

France. A new, widely-covered poll shows that a full 16% of French people have positive attitudes toward ISIS. That includes 27% of French between the ages of 18-24. Anne-Elizabeth Moutet of Newsweek wrote, “This is the ideology of young French Muslims from immigrant backgrounds…these are the same people who torch synagogues.”

Britain. In 2006, a poll for the Sunday Telegraph found that 40% of British Muslims wanted shariah law in the United Kingdom, and that 20% backed the 7/7 bombers. Another poll from that year showed that 45% of British Muslims said that 9/11 was an American/Israeli conspiracy; that poll showed that one-quarter of British Muslims believed that the 7/7 bombings were justified.

Palestinian Areas. A poll in 2011 showed that 32% of Palestinians supported the brutal murder of five Israeli family members, including a three-month-old baby. In 2009, a poll showed that 78% of Palestinians had positive or mixed feelings about Osama Bin Laden. A 2013 poll showed 40% of Palestinians supporting suicide bombings and attacks against civilians. 89% favored sharia law. Currently, 89% of Palestinians support terror attacks on Israel.

Pakistan. After the killing of Osama Bin Laden, the Gilani Foundation did a poll of Pakistanis and found that 51% of them grieved for the terrorist mastermind, with 44% of them stating that he was a martyr. In 2009, 26% of Pakistanis approved of attacks on US troops in Iraq. That number was 29% for troops in Afghanistan. Overall, 76% of Pakistanis wanted strict shariah law in every Islamic country.

Morocco. A 2009 poll showed that 68% of Moroccans approved of terrorist attacks on US troops in Iraq; 61% backed attacks on American troops in Afghanistan as of 2006. 76% said they wanted strict sharia law in every Islamic country.

Jordan. 72% of Jordanians backed terror attacks against US troops in Iraq as of 2009. In 2010, the terrorist group Hezbollah had a 55% approval rating; Hamas had a 60% approval rating.

Indonesia: In 2009, a poll demonstrated that 26% of Indonesians approved of attacks on US troops in Iraq; 22% backed attacks on American troops in Afghanistan. 65% said they agreed with Al Qaeda on pushing US troops out of the Middle East. 49% said they supported strict sharia law in every Islamic country. 70% of Indonesians blamed 9/11 on the United States, Israel, someone else, or didn’t know. Just 30% said Al Qaeda was responsible.

Egypt. As of 2009, 87% of Egyptians said they agreed with the goals of Al Qaeda in forcing the US to withdraw forces from the Middle East. 65% said they wanted strict sharia law in every Islamic country. As of that same date, 69% of Egyptians said they had either positive or mixed feelings about Osama Bin Laden. In 2010, 95% of Egyptians said it was good that Islam is playing a major role in politics.

United States. A 2013 poll from Pew showed that 13% of American Muslims said that violence against civilians is often, sometimes or rarely justified to defend Islam. A 2011 poll from Pew showed that 21 percent of Muslims are concerned about extremism among Muslim Americans. 19 percent of American Muslims as of 2011 said they were either favorable toward Al Qaeda or didn’t know.


The British ultimately admitted they were wrong to limit Jewish immigration (while not limiting Arab immigration) in the Peel Commission, after the flood of holocaust refugees proved the area could support the population. And Muslims found common cause with Hilter, which is why they renamed Persia Iran (Aryan). The British had already shown their Arab favoritism, so nothing would have stopped the Jewish genocide but arming the Israelis. And even after WWII, the surrounding Muslim countries were eager to arm the Palestinians, to continue the genocide.

The residents of Palestine are called "Palestinians". Since Palestine includes both modern day Israel and Jordan both Arab and Jewish residents of this area were referred to as "Palestinians".

It was only after the Jews re-inhabited their historic homeland of Judea and Samaria, that the myth of an Arab Palestinian nation was created and marketed worldwide. Jews come from Judea, not Palestinians. There is no language known as Palestinian, or any Palestinian culture distinct from that of all the Arabs in the area. There has never been a land known as Palestine governed by Palestinians. "Palestinians" are Arabs indistinguishable from Arabs throughout the Middle East. The great majority of Arabs in greater Palestine and Israel share the same culture, language and religion.

Much of the Arab population in this area actually migrated into Israel and Judea and Samaria from the surrounding Arab countries in the past 100 years. The rebirth of Israel was accompanied by economic prosperity for the region. Arabs migrated to this area to find employment and enjoy the higher standard of living. In documents not more than hundred years, the area is described as a scarcely populated region. Jews by far were the majority in Jerusalem over the small Arab minority. Until the Oslo agreement the major source of income for Arab residents was employment in the Israeli sector. To this day, many Arabs try to migrate into Israel with various deceptions to become a citizen of Israel.

Even the Chairman of the Palestinian Authority, Arafat himself, is not a "Palestinian". He was born in Egypt. The famous "Palestinian covenant" states that Palestinians are "an integral part of the Arab nation" -- a nation which is blessed with a sparsely populated land mass 660 times the size of tiny Israel (Judea, Samaria and Gaza included). - http://www.science.co.il/History-Palestine.php


So you're actually in favor of the Arabs driving away the Jewish natives and taking over their very small, populous, and not oil-rich land. That's repulsive, and the closer analogy to European conquest of Native Americans. You've bought a lot of antisemitic lies. Equivocating Semitic languages with antisemitism is actually a symptom of antisemitic apologists. Learn some history...or at least try harder to not sound like an unabashed antisemite.
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