There is no deception, active concealment, nor contradiction if God is not a physical being that would natively manifest in our physical reality. You make choices open to deception all the time. That doesn't undermine your free ability to choose, only your ability to judge the quality of your choice. Since there is no positive evidence against the existence of God, the facts are neutral and freedom of choice fully maintained. There can only be delusion that something that positively exists does not or something that positively does not exist does. If you claim the chair you sit in doesn't exist, you're delusional, because you're denying the reality. If you claim that all politicians are space aliens, you're delusional, because they cannot be demonstrated to be anything but human (albeit however poor examples). Neither of these apply to something that cannot be proven to exist or not, hence belief and faith.
There's a significant difference between evidence and justification. You can have a justified belief, based on your own experience, without any evidence you can demonstrate to others. Most personal experiences tend to fall into this category. It doesn't make you delusional just because you have no evidence of your own experiences... at least where those experiences do not directly contradict actual evidence.
Quote:There is no deception, active concealment, nor contradiction if God is not a physical being that would natively manifest in our physical reality. You make choices open to deception all the time. That doesn't undermine your free ability to choose, only your ability to judge the quality of your choice. Since there is no positive evidence against the existence of God, the facts are neutral and freedom of choice fully maintained.
Nope..God has the ability to reveal his existence to us at any time and thus giving the free choice of knowing he exists. That he doesn't either means he's propagating a delusion of himself not existing or in fact doesn't exist at all. Assuming he does exist, he thus withholds valuable information to make free choices by. It's pretty much cut and dried. You either show yourself to be real and enable free choice or pretend to not exist and bias choice towards non-existence.
Bottom line: freewill is the totally false argument attempting to explain why God is nowhere to be found and why the universe operates exactly like he doesn't exist. It is a distraction from the fundamental fact that the central story book character in ancient Hebrew mythology is simply nothing more than that.
(Aug 21, 2026 02:24 AM)Magical Realist Wrote: [ -> ]Nope..God has the ability to reveal his existence to us at any time and thus giving the free choice of knowing he exists.
Then there would be no choice. You'd either believe God exists or be delusional.
(Aug 21, 2026 03:13 AM)Syne Wrote: [ -> ] (Aug 21, 2026 02:24 AM)Magical Realist Wrote: [ -> ]Nope..God has the ability to reveal his existence to us at any time and thus giving the free choice of knowing he exists.
Then there would be no choice. You'd either believe God exists or be delusional.
His existence would be known and without doubt like all other sensory-revealed things in the universe. It would become acknowledged as a vital fact we could base all our future choices on. No more deception warping our choice towards disbelief. There's no obligation for what is real to conform to human freewill. Freewill must always conform to reality.
Then you agree, without doubt there is no choice in believing.
(Aug 21, 2026 03:40 AM)Syne Wrote: [ -> ]Then you agree, without doubt there is no choice in believing.
Knowing God exists would no more violate free choice than knowing matter exists. Once you know the facts, you don't have to believe. And all your future choices will be free based on real knowledge of God's existence instead of on delusion and deception.
Ah, you're confused. You have no choice if you already know. You can't choose to forget or believe otherwise, just like people do not knowingly choose to be delusional.
Deflecting from knowledge of matter to free will more broadly is irrelevant. God would want free will to choose to believe. Otherwise, you would take God for granted as much as you do ordinary matter. No one wants that kind of relationship. Certain knowledge of God's existence wouldn't allow people to justify their own bad deeds as something beyond their control (like a brain chemical imbalance, etc.), so wouldn't be a fair test of actual character. Free choice becomes coercive with certain knowledge of God.
How Hiddenness Protects Free Will
Prevents Coercion: A visible, undeniable God acts like a police officer sitting in the backseat of your car. You would follow the speed limit, but not because you want to be a good citizen; you do it because punishment is immediate and certain. Hiddenness allows you to choose good for the sake of goodness, not survival.
Allows Epistemic Distance: Philosopher John Hick argued that God sets humans at an epistemic distance (a distance in knowledge). This gap gives humans the "room" to form their own characters, choose their own worldviews, and make independent moral choices without being overwhelmed by a divine presence.
Enables Genuine Love: For love to be real, it must be freely given and include the option of rejection. If God’s glory were fully exposed, the choice to reject Him would become psychologically impossible for a rational mind. Hiddenness makes faith a meaningful, voluntary choice.
- gemini
Suffice it to say, there's a long philosophical history of the free will defense of divine hiddenness.
Don't like it? Meh.
Quote:You have no choice if you already know. You can't choose to forget or believe otherwise, just like people do not knowingly choose to be delusional.
Humans have to adapt to the reality of their lives. Reality does not conform to their need to freely choose. Kids are born with missing arms, people die in car crashes, and cancer strikes down many. We don't get to choose between real facts of life. And God showing that he exists would be the same. It would not be something we have to choose to believe in or not. It would be brute fact like the existence of matter. And so based on that knowledge, humans would be able to choose freely how to live their lives instead of being deluded by God's hiding from them. Freewill is based on knowing facts, not on spurious either/or possibilities.
So you ignored the vast bulk of my post... as usual. 9_9
I don't respond to non-conscious LLMs.. If that's the only way you can argue, then you're done.