Scivillage.com Casual Discussion Science Forum

Quote:The establishment clause of the Constitution is not about a complete "separation of church and state." Thomas Jefferson, who coined the phrase, said it was a one-way wall that protected religion from government interference but did not keep religion out of the public square or influencing government.

Yes..it's about the complete separation of church and state:

"The "separation clause" refers to the Establishment Clause of the U.S. Constitution's First Amendment. It prohibits the government from establishing an official state religion, coercing religious participation, or unduly favoring one religion over another. The phrase "separation of church and state" does not appear in the text of the Constitution itself. Instead, it is a legal doctrine and metaphor derived directly from the opening 16 words of the First Amendment."

Quote:Now you're either ignorant or just lying. No state has banned teaching about LGBT historical figures.

Google AI:

"The term "Don't Say Gay" refers to policies, most notably Florida's 2022 Parental Rights in Education Act (HB 1557), that restrict classroom instruction and discussion regarding sexual orientation and gender identity.

Florida's Legislation

The Original Bill (HB 1557): Signed in March 2022, this law prohibited classroom discussion of sexual orientation or gender identity for kindergarten through third grade. It also required schools to notify parents of changes in services regarding a student's mental or physical health.

Expansion (HB 1069): Passed in 2023, this expanded the restrictions through 12th grade. It placed heavy limits on the use of personal pronouns and expanded book-banning procedures.

Supporters: Backers of the policy argue it empowers parents to make decisions about their children's upbringing and keeps discussions of sexuality out of early education.

Opponents: Critics argue that the law stigmatizes LGBTQ+ youth, stifles inclusive learning environments, and contributes to the isolation of LGBTQ+ students.

National Context

Beyond Florida, several other states have introduced or implemented varying legislation regarding LGBTQ+ topics in schools. For an overview of how these laws and state-by-state education policies differ across the U.S., you can review resources like the Human Rights Campaign or PEN America."

Quote:Again, adult sexuality is not appropriate for children. The fact that this is so hard for some people to understand makes them sound like groomers.
It serves no one to be taught they are a victim.

Talking about sexual orientation isn't talking about sex. It's a fact of the world which even children should know about. Particularly when kids see their friends with two daddies or mommies. Keeping it from them is ignorant and fearmongering and rooted in your own homophobic ideology.

Quote:Strawman, as I never made that claim. Some former LGBT people do cite LGBT-inclusive education and gender ideology for confusing them as children.

Good. Then letting kids know LGBTs exist doesn't groom them to become LGBT like you just claimed. Glad we agree.

Quote:So even if you consider the Bible fiction, it is no less literature... which can be taught as such.

It's not literature. It's religious dogma believed to be true by a certain religion and brainwashed into kids as if it was true. Literature is writing known to be fiction and accepted as creative and tutelary. The Bible is just outdated horseshit from an ancient culture that doesn't even exist any more.

Quote:Anyone can learn about LGBT, in college or from the culture. There's plenty of college courses that include or focus on and plenty of movies, music, books, etc. that explicitly show and tell people whatever they want to learn about.

They're part of our history and culture. There should be no censorship anywhere on talking about it. And by the same token, if someone wants to learn about a particular religion, they can go to that church and learn about it there or a library. There's no moral or constitutional basis for forcing students learn about it in a tax-payer funded public school setting where far more important things need to be taught.

(Jun 30, 2026 05:30 AM)Magical Realist Wrote: [ -> ]

Quote:The establishment clause of the Constitution is not about a complete "separation of church and state." Thomas Jefferson, who coined the phrase, said it was a one-way wall that protected religion from government interference but did not keep religion out of the public square or influencing government.

Yes..it's about the complete separation of church and state:

"The "separation clause" refers to the Establishment Clause of the U.S. Constitution's First Amendment. It prohibits the government from establishing an official state religion, coercing religious participation, or unduly favoring one religion over another. The phrase "separation of church and state" does not appear in the text of the Constitution itself. Instead, it is a legal doctrine and metaphor derived directly from the opening 16 words of the First Amendment."

No, you do not get a limit on religion participation and influence upon politics or government from a prohibition only against what the government can do. The establishment clause makes no prohibition against religion, only government. Hence a one-way wall. I get that you don't like that, but it is a fact.

Quote:

Quote:Now you're either ignorant or just lying. No state has banned teaching about LGBT historical figures.

Google AI:

"The term "Don't Say Gay" refers to policies, most notably Florida's 2022 Parental Rights in Education Act (HB 1557), that restrict classroom instruction and discussion regarding sexual orientation and gender identity.

Florida's Legislation

The Original Bill (HB 1557): Signed in March 2022, this law prohibited classroom discussion of sexual orientation or gender identity for kindergarten through third grade. It also required schools to notify parents of changes in services regarding a student's mental or physical health.

Expansion (HB 1069): Passed in 2023, this expanded the restrictions through 12th grade. It placed heavy limits on the use of personal pronouns and expanded book-banning procedures.

Supporters: Backers of the policy argue it empowers parents to make decisions about their children's upbringing and keeps discussions of sexuality out of early education.

Opponents: Critics argue that the law stigmatizes LGBTQ+ youth, stifles inclusive learning environments, and contributes to the isolation of LGBTQ+ students.

National Context

Beyond Florida, several other states have introduced or implemented varying legislation regarding LGBTQ+ topics in schools. For an overview of how these laws and state-by-state education policies differ across the U.S., you can review resources like the Human Rights Campaign or PEN America."

So where in any of that does it say you can't teach about LGBT people in history?
It only says you cannot teach about their "sexual orientation or gender identity," not their accomplishments.
Try again.

Quote:

Quote:Again, adult sexuality is not appropriate for children. The fact that this is so hard for some people to understand makes them sound like groomers.
It serves no one to be taught they are a victim.

Talking about sexual orientation isn't talking about sex. It's a fact of the world which even children should know about. Keeping it from them is ignorant and fearmongering.

No one explicitly teaches children about heterosexual love in primary school. At most, it's mommies and daddies, or two mommies (whether mom and step-mom or lesbian), etc. with zero need to explain sexual orientation to children... unless you have a very specific agenda. @_@

Quote:

Quote:Strawman, as I never made that claim. Some former LGBT people do cite LGBT-inclusive education and gender ideology for confusing them as children.

Good. Then letting kids know LGBTs exist doesn't groom them to become LGBT like you just claimed. Glad we agree.

Except the bolded bit you forgot to omit. 9_9

Quote:No, you do not get a limit on religion participation and influence upon politics or government from a prohibition only against what the government can do.

Yes we do. It's called the establishment clause and fordids the govt from forcing a religion on its people. I'll just keep repeating this:

"The "separation clause" refers to the Establishment Clause of the U.S. Constitution's First Amendment. It prohibits the government from establishing an official state religion, coercing religious participation, or unduly favoring one religion over another."

Quote:So where in any of that does it say you can't teach about LGBT people in history?
It only says you cannot teach about their "sexual orientation or gender identity," not their accomplishments.
Try again.

Right here: "The term "Don't Say Gay" refers to policies, most notably Florida's 2022 Parental Rights in Education Act (HB 1557), that restrict classroom instruction and discussion regarding sexual orientation and gender identity."

If they are banning the mention of sexual orientation, then they are banning mentioning famous LGBTs who had a major influence on history.

Quote:No one explicitly teaches children about heterosexual love in primary school

Sure they do. Heterosexual love is mentioned all the time. Sleeping Beauty. Romeo and Juliet. Cinderella. There's even a holiday called Valentine's Day devoted to heterosexual love that kids are forced to celebrate. It's all part of the System to program them into being obedient little breeders.

Quote:Except the bolded bit you forgot to omit.

I don't respond to claims you just pulled out your ass.

(Jun 30, 2026 05:10 PM)Magical Realist Wrote: [ -> ]

Quote:No, you do not get a limit on religion participation and influence upon politics or government from a prohibition only against what the government can do.

Yes we do. It's called the establishment clause and fordids the govt from forcing a religion on its people.

Yes, "fordids the govt."

Literacy is amazing!

Quote:

Quote:So where in any of that does it say you can't teach about LGBT people in history?
It only says you cannot teach about their "sexual orientation or gender identity," not their accomplishments.
Try again.

Right here: "The term "Don't Say Gay" refers to policies, most notably Florida's 2022 Parental Rights in Education Act (HB 1557), that restrict classroom instruction and discussion regarding sexual orientation and gender identity."

If they are banning the mention of sexual orientation, then they are banning mentioning famous LGBTs who had a major influence on history.

So now you're changing your tune and claiming that you cannot teach about an LGBT person's contribution to history without also teach their sexual orientation or gender identity.

Yeah, that's a false dilemma and a problem of your own making.

Quote:

Quote:No one explicitly teaches children about heterosexual love in primary school

Sure they do. Heterosexual love is mentioned all the time. Sleeping Beauty. Romeo and Juliet. Cinderella. There's even a holiday called Valentine's Day devoted to heterosexual love that kids are forced to celebrate. It's all part of the System to program them into being obedient little breeders.

You think Sleeping Beauty, Romeo and Juliet, and Cinderella are taught to young children.... in schools? @_@
You think young children are taught about heterosexual love... on Valentine's Day? @_@

Those silly beliefs are on you.

Quote:

Quote:Except the bolded bit you forgot to omit.

I don't respond to claims you just pulled out your ass.

I gave you a link: https://www.changedmovement.com/stories
But that's far too much cognitive dissonance for you to have the nerve to acknowledge. Much better that you pretend it never existed... and protect your fragile little beliefs.

Quote:Yes, "fordids the govt."

It's exactly what you denied dumbass.

Quote:So now you're changing your tune and claiming that you cannot teach about an LGBT person's contribution to history without also teach their sexual orientation or gender identity.

Exactly..you can't ban teaching about LGBT and then mention LGBT people in history who were discriminated against and made contributions to history. BTW, did you know Lincoln had a male lover for awhile? That makes him at least bisexual.

Quote:You think Sleeping Beauty, Romeo and Juliet, and Cinderella are taught to young children.... in schools? @_@
You think young children are taught about heterosexual love... on Valentine's Day?

Yep..and from grades 1-9:

"Yes, Cinderella is widely read in schools, particularly at the elementary level (grades 1–3). It is frequently used in reading and language arts classes to help young students build reading comprehension skills, explore the fantasy genre, and identify story elements like character, setting, and plot."

"Yes, Sleeping Beauty is commonly read in schools, particularly in elementary and primary settings as part of fairy tale units or reading curriculums. It is often used to teach themes such as good triumphing over evil, patience, and resilience, typically targeted at readers aged 8 to 10 (grades 3-5) or younger for read-alouds."

"Yes, Romeo and Juliet is widely read in schools, particularly in the United States, where it is often the standard introduction to Shakespeare in 9th grade. It is considered one of the most frequently taught plays in American high schools."

Then there's this we ALL were taught in first grade:

Quote:I gave you a link: https://www.changedmovement.com/stories
But that's far too much cognitive dissonance for you to have the nerve to acknowledge. Much better that you pretend it never existed... and protect your fragile little beliefs.

LOL "Former LGBTs"..right. "Oh, I only THOUGHT I liked sucking dick!"

Pretty much proof any old bullshit can be posted online that suits your own LGBT-bashing agenda.

"The United States has roughly 370,000 religious congregations. All are exempt from federal income tax. Each are exempt from local property taxes. Combined, the estimated value of tax-exempt religious property in America runs somewhere between $300 billion and $600 billion. Nobody knows the precise number, because nobody is required to count."

Incidentally, it would cost $93 billion per year to fully eradicate world hunger by 2030.

(Jun 30, 2026 08:56 PM)Magical Realist Wrote: [ -> ]

Quote:Yes, "fordids the govt."

It's exactly what you denied dumbass.

Is that what you think this says:

(Jun 30, 2026 06:07 AM)Syne Wrote: [ -> ]No, you do not get a limit on religion participation and influence upon politics or government from a prohibition only against what the government can do. The establishment clause makes no prohibition against religion, only government.

Literacy is amazing!

Quote:

Quote:So now you're changing your tune and claiming that you cannot teach about an LGBT person's contribution to history without also teach their sexual orientation or gender identity.

Exactly..you can't ban teaching about LGBT and then mention LGBT people in history who were discriminated against and made contributions to history.

Ahem:

(Jun 30, 2026 01:19 AM)Magical Realist Wrote: [ -> ]Noone is claiming that LGBTs contributed to history because they are LGBT anymore than they're claiming blacks or women contributed to history because of their race or sex.

Then it's irrelevant to their contribution to history.
Which is it? Either you can talk about their contributions without mentioning their sexuality, or you can ONLY teach their contributions IF you also teach their sexuality? @_@

Is their only contribution that they were discriminated against? Or, like Turing, Wilde, etc., is their sexuality completely irrelevant to their contribution?
You tell me.

Quote:BTW, did you know Lincoln had a male lover for awhile? That makes him at least bisexual.

No definitive historical evidence of that. Weren't you just saying how love has nothing to do with sex?

(Jun 30, 2026 01:19 AM)Magical Realist Wrote: [ -> ]That men can love men and women can love women has nothing to do with sex.

Do you think friends cannot love each other? @_@
Never heard of platonic love? No one is trying to ban teaching that.

Quote:

Quote:You think Sleeping Beauty, Romeo and Juliet, and Cinderella are taught to young children.... in schools? @_@
You think young children are taught about heterosexual love... on Valentine's Day?

Yep..and from grades 1-9:

"Yes, Cinderella is widely read in schools, particularly at the elementary level (grades 1–3). It is frequently used in reading and language arts classes to help young students build reading comprehension skills, explore the fantasy genre, and identify story elements like character, setting, and plot."

"Yes, Sleeping Beauty is commonly read in schools, particularly in elementary and primary settings as part of fairy tale units or reading curriculums. It is often used to teach themes such as good triumphing over evil, patience, and resilience, typically targeted at readers aged 8 to 10 (grades 3-5) or younger for read-alouds."

"Yes, Romeo and Juliet is widely read in schools, particularly in the United States, where it is often the standard introduction to Shakespeare in 9th grade. It is considered one of the most frequently taught plays in American high schools."

Must be after my time on those fairy tales. Do you think any of these are "taught" as more then literature?

Romeo and Juliet is widely taught as a core English literature text, usually in 9th grade. Sleeping Beauty and Cinderella are fairy tales generally not taught in high school English, though they may appear briefly in early elementary units or folklore studies.
- gemini

So Shakespeare is taught to older children, as literature. And fairy tales are taught as.... wait for it... fairy tales.
None of it is taught as normative nor prescriptive. Do you even know what those words mean? @_@

Quote:

Quote:I gave you a link: https://www.changedmovement.com/stories
But that's far too much cognitive dissonance for you to have the nerve to acknowledge. Much better that you pretend it never existed... and protect your fragile little beliefs.

LOL "Former LGBTs"..right. "Oh, I only THOUGHT I liked sucking dick!"

Pretty much proof any old bullshit can be posted online that suits your own LGBT-bashing agenda.

So now you're denying personal testimony of actual experiences... when you demand all UFO, ghost, etc. experience must be believed?
Biased hypocrite.

I could do the same thing. I could just say all LGBT are simply lying about experiencing any discrimination. See how it works when you're not intellectually honesty? Discussion goes nowhere.

But... that is actually what you want, isn't it? @_@