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Full Version: Does our physical reality exist in an objective manner?
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https://bigthink.com/starts-with-a-bang/...ive-exist/

KEY POINTS: The old philosophical question, “If a tree falls in the forest but there’s no one around to hear it, does it make a sound?” seems to obviously have an answer: yes. Whenever a tree falls, its trunk snaps, its branches collide with others, and it collides with the ground. Each one of those actions should make a sound [actually "sound" as pertains to gas vibrations, not the brain-produced mental experience or auditory manifestation of "sound"]. But relativity teaches us that the sound each observer experiences is relative to their position and motion, and quantum physics tells us that the act of observing changes the quantum state of this system. What does that all mean for the existence of “objective reality?”

EXCERPT: One such question that we cannot answer is whether there is such a thing as an objective, observer-independent reality. Many of us assume that it does, and we build our interpretations of quantum physics in such ways that they admit an underlying, objective reality. Others don’t make that assumption, and build equally valid interpretations of quantum physics that don’t necessarily have one. All we have to guide us, for better or for worse, is what we can observe and measure. We can physically describe that, successfully, either with or without an objective, observer-independent reality. At this moment in time, it’s up to each of us to decide whether we’d rather add on the philosophically satisfying but physically extraneous notion that “objective reality” is meaningful... (MORE - details)
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You don't have access to a metaphysical external world, only the empirical external world instantiated by brain-related manifestations. If you kill yourself to try to reach the "physical" speculated version of the former (get rid of that brain barrier), then you simply return to a non-mental realm that is accordingly absent of all manifestations (including yourself). A materialist, metaphysical postulation which via its very definition lacks both reason-mediated and experientially presented evidence for itself, when without those contingent and emergent psychological affairs.

Instead of such a non-phenomenal or metaphysical manner of existence that can't be verified, you have to ground the objectivity or mind-independence of the outer world (that you do have access to) in the fact that it does not obey your wishes -- you can't control it by will alone. It's events are regulated by its own rules. And that outer-represented environment is also inter-subjectively global. It is available to other people, as well as animals (not just you).
Quote:Instead of such a non-phenomenal or metaphysical manner of existence that can't be verified, you have to ground the objectivity or mind-independence of the outer world (that you do have access to) in the fact that it does not obey your wishes -- you can't control it by will alone.

And yet even a vivid hallucination experienced by taking DMT seems to proceed independently of our own will or even rationality. Dreams too in fact. This phenomenally-experienced mind independence of these alternate realities either entails their equal objectivity to our wakeful physical world, or the inadequacy of such mind independence of its happening as a sound basis for any objectivity. whatsoever. We never do really get outside of the "being for us"--the subjectivity--of our experienced world, be it our perceived wakeful world or our dream world. It's being "out there and on its own" apart from us is simply an inference we make out of it being wholly contained within us in every way. We could have no knowledge of the objectivity of a reality unless it were in fact totally contained inside us. And yet that knowledge contradicts this very premise!
(Dec 26, 2025 08:13 PM)Magical Realist Wrote: [ -> ]
Quote:Instead of such a non-phenomenal or metaphysical manner of existence that can't be verified, you have to ground the objectivity or mind-independence of the outer world (that you do have access to) in the fact that it does not obey your wishes -- you can't control it by will alone.

And yet even a vivid hallucination experienced by taking DMT seems to proceed independently of our own will or even rationality. Dreams too in fact. This phenomenally-experienced mind independence of these alternate realities either entails their equal objectivity to our wakeful physical world, or the inadequacy of such mind independence of its happening as a sound basis for any objectivity. whatsoever. We never do really get outside of the "being for us"--the subjectivity--of our experienced world, be it our perceived wakeful world or our dream world. It's being "out there and on its own" apart from us is simply an inference we make out of it being wholly contained within us in every way.

But everyone else doesn't share in an individual (or even small group) hallucination, thus the second qualifying factor: "And that outer-represented environment is also inter-subjectively global. It is available to other people, as well as animals (not just you)."

Really, all the characteristics for objectivity could be summed up under _X_ external manifestation being internally coherent with itself. But usually those components are going to have to be unpackaged to avoid misunderstanding. Like the independence from personal will, the lawfulness, the universality of what residents experience, and even that the reality is somewhat long-lived (at least spanning one's lifetime). A world that doesn't hang together well in terms of those things becomes a blatant candidate for being classified as a dream, hallucination, or a very poorly governed slash generated simulation.
Objective reality is either mind-independent or a mutual agreement of minds. The only other option is solipsism.