Scivillage.com Casual Discussion Science Forum

A wave of anger toward Israel is washing over Netanyahu’s administration
https://inews.co.uk/opinion/wave-anger-i...on-3834220

INTRO: When Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu publicly lacerated Sir Keir Starmer’s decision late on Tuesday to recognise Palestinian statehood, it was not a surprise in Downing Street.

Starmer had already spoken to Netanyahu that afternoon ahead of his statement in a diplomatic nicety that jars with Israel’s increasing world isolation.

“Starmer rewards Hamas’s monstrous terrorism and punishes its victims. A jihadist state on Israel’s border TODAY will threaten Britain TOMORROW,” the Israeli leader wrote. “Appeasement towards jihadist terrorists always fails. It will fail you too. It will not happen.”

Starmer, having seen Israel’s reaction to French president Emmanuel Macron’s recognition of Palestine, knew the reaction would be furious. It was already priced in.

But whereas even a few weeks ago the arguments put forward by Netanyahu were carefully weighed, the scales have tipped against Israel.

A wave of anger toward Israel is washing over Netanyahu’s administration in direct proportion to the horrors in Gaza. Emaciated infants, children in soup lines, and men fighting over flour. Deadly shootings at aid points and hungry foreign volunteer doctors have focused minds in capitals around the world, not least in London.

In Israel too, sentiment is shifting. Earlier this week Israel’s main TV channel aired a segment on how hunger in Gaza is portrayed globally, including in British newspapers. As it ended, news anchor Yonit Levi looked up and remarked: “Maybe it’s finally time to acknowledge that this isn’t a public relations failure, but a moral one.”

She appeared to capture a moment when Israelis are now openly articulating that what was once seen as a just war and retaliation for the 7 October attacks has tipped into an unjust and unequal persecution... (MORE - details)
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Starmer’s move on Palestinian statehood is clever politics
https://theconversation.com/starmers-mov...ics-262239

INTRO: Prime Minister Sir Keir Starmer's announcement that Britain will recognise Palestinian statehood is a major change in UK foreign policy.

He offered to postpone recognition if Israel took "substantive steps to end the appalling situation in Gaza, agree to a ceasefire and commit to a long-term, sustainable peace, reviving the prospect of a two-state solution."

Israel's immediate rejection of his statement meant that Starmer's speech writers can start work now on what he will say at the UN General Assembly in September. UK recognition of Palestine looks "irreversible," according to a senior British official.

Starmer won't be expecting Britain's change of policy to produce an independent Palestinian state any time soon – from the perspective of many Israelis, the best time for it would be never – but the intention, diplomatic sources say, is to empower moderates on both sides, Israelis and Palestinians. The British hope they can jolt them into believing that peace might be possible.

It won't be easy, not just because of the way Hamas killed around 1,200 people, including hundreds of Israeli civilians, and took hostages on 7 October 2023, followed by Israel's vengeful response that has killed tens of thousands civilians and left Gaza in ruins.

It is also because every attempt to make peace has failed. Years of peace talks in the 1990s ended in bloodshed. Every attempt to revive them since then has collapsed... (MORE - details)

Is the UK going to recognize a designated terrorist organization as the leadership of that "state"?

Israel seems to be running out of options .. either kill 2 million people or build a secure prison to house them for hundreds or even thousands of years. While it is difficult to justify punishing a generation that haven't done anything wrong they are likely to notice that they grew up in a prison created by the Israelis. There are also millions of Palestinians outside Gaza .. will they forgive and forget?

Syne Wrote:Is the UK going to recognize a designated terrorist organization as the leadership of that "state"?

What do you think the Israelis should do?

(Jul 31, 2025 08:34 AM)confused2 Wrote: [ -> ]Israel seems to be running out of options .. either kill 2 million people or build a secure prison to house them for hundreds or even thousands of years. While it is difficult to justify punishing a generation that haven't done anything wrong they are likely to notice that they grew up in a prison created by the Israelis. There are also millions of Palestinians outside Gaza .. will they forgive and forget?

Syne Wrote:Is the UK going to recognize a designated terrorist organization as the leadership of that "state"?

What do you think the Israelis should do?

I'm pretty sure the state of Israel became a thing through something similar.

Reading that Wiki link there was something along the lines of some internal dispute caused between the Jewish Immigrants and the Arab groups that led to guerilla calling themself a leader and declaring a state just to rally Jews to fight. (I'm pretty sure the Special Jewish units that were created during the second world war sudden pledged allegiance to the burdening state for defence etc so as to cement its legitimacy.)

So it's pot and kettle.

Imagine if it was grandfathered-in, that the State of Israel was never legitimate.
That might work better than giving Palestinians statehood. So Palestinian state, or no Israel, thats the choice?

(Jul 31, 2025 08:34 AM)confused2 Wrote: [ -> ]Israel seems to be running out of options .. either kill 2 million people or build a secure prison to house them for hundreds or even thousands of years. While it is difficult to justify punishing a generation that haven't done anything wrong they are likely to notice that they grew up in a prison created by the Israelis. There are also millions of Palestinians outside Gaza .. will they forgive and forget?

Syne Wrote:Is the UK going to recognize a designated terrorist organization as the leadership of that "state"?

What do you think the Israelis should do?

What about the surrounding Arab/Muslim countries taking care of their own?
What about the UN simply working with the GHF to distribute their 950 truckloads of aid currently baking in the desert sun?
How is the care of Palestinians solely the responsibility of Israel?
Egypt could open its border to Gaza any time they want, but they fear Palestinians in their society just like Israel does.

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(Jul 31, 2025 12:16 PM)stryder Wrote: [ -> ]I'm pretty sure the state of Israel became a thing through something similar.

The difference is that Jews had a way longer history of occupying and ruling the region. Modern Palestinians have never successfully ruled anything.

Quote:That might work better than giving Palestinians statehood. So Palestinian state, or no Israel, thats the choice?

Completely ignorant.

"Canada has joined France and Britain in announcing plans to recognize a Palestinian state in September as international pressure builds on Israel over the ongoing starvation crisis and war in Gaza.

The move leaves the United States increasingly isolated from some of its closest allies on the issue of Israel and how it has conducted its military campaign.

US President Donald Trump blasted Canada’s decision, threatening to derail ongoing trade talks with Ottawa.

Canadian Prime Minister Mark Carney made the announcement on Wednesday and said that Canada has “long been committed to a two-state solution” that would see an independent Palestinian state “living side by side with the State of Israel in peace and security.”

The move follows similar announcements by France, which has said it will recognize a Palestinian state in September, and the UK, which has said that it will too if Israel does not meet conditions that include agreeing to a ceasefire in Gaza.

“Canada intends to recognize the state of Palestine at the 80th General Assembly of the United Nations,” Carney told reporters, flanked by Foreign Minister Anita Anand. “We intend to do so because the Palestinian Authority has committed to lead much needed reform.”

Trump, on Thursday, hinted at blowing up trade talks with Canada over its plans to recognize Palestinian statehood.

“Wow! Canada has just announced that it is backing statehood for Palestine. That will make it very hard for us to make a Trade Deal with them. Oh’ Canada!!!” he wrote on Truth Social.

His comments come at an intense stage of Canada-US trade negotiations, with a 35 per cent tariff hike threatening to kick in on some Canadian goods if both sides fail to reach an agreement by August 1.

It’s only the latest escalation in a dramatic on-and-off trade war with the US’s closest trading partner.

However France welcomed Canada’s announcement, with the Elysee Palace highlighting that President Emmanuel Macron had discussed the issue with Carney and looks forward to “working together.”

“We will continue our efforts to encourage others to join this momentum in the run-up to the General Assembly in September,” the Elysee added in a statement.

In his announcement, Carney added that the Palestinian Authority’s President Mahmoud Abbas assured him that his administration will hold long-delayed elections in 2026 in which Hamas will “play no part.”

“(Abbas) has also committed to not militarizing the state of Palestine,” Carney added.

It comes at a time of renewed international attention on the war in Gaza, especially the ongoing hunger crisis caused by Israel’s blockade of humanitarian aid.

“Canada will always steadfastly support Israel’s existence as an independent state in the Middle East, living in peace and security,” Carney said. “Any path to lasting peace for Israel also requires a viable and stable Palestinian state and one that recognizes Israel’s inalienable right to security.”

Carney’s announcement came after the Canadian leader spoke to British Prime Minister Keir Starmer about Gaza on Tuesday, a fact Carney mentioned on Wednesday.

During their call, the two politicians discussed “the rapidly deteriorating humanitarian disaster in Gaza, as well as the United Kingdom’s statement on the recognition of a Palestinian state,” according to a readout from Carney’s office.

Israel’s Foreign Ministry quickly “rejected” Canada’s decision in a post on X, calling it a “reward to Hamas.”

“The change in the position of the Canadian government at this time is a reward for Hamas and harms the efforts to achieve a ceasefire in Gaza and a framework for the release of the hostages,” the Ministry stated.

“Let us be clear: Israel will not bow to the distorted campaign of international pressure against it,” Israel’s Ambassador to Canada Iddo Moed said in an X post from the embassy. “We will not sacrifice our very existence by permitting the imposition of a jihadist state on our ancestral homeland that seeks our annihilation.”---- https://www.cnn.com/2025/07/30/world/can...intl-latam

So they are going to grant statehood to people who have no working government, infrastructure, internal security forces, etc. (not a nation by any definition) before they abide by a laundry list of demands. Why would anyone believe Gaza would accept any outside demands?

Naive and gullible.

Quote:So they are going to grant statehood to people who have no working government, infrastructure, internal security forces, etc.

Kinda hard to have all those things when you've been run off your own homeland and then bombed to hell and occupied by military forces and blocked from getting any supplies. But even with all that, they are determined hard working people and an economy and will thrive if they are allowed to. Investments from other nations and international corporations that come with the establishment of statehood will provide a huge boost for reconstruction and stability.

Regarding the government of Palestine:

"The government of Palestine is the government of the Palestinian Authority or State of Palestine. The Executive Committee of the Palestine Liberation Organization (EC) is the highest executive body of the Palestine Liberation Organization and acts as the government. Since June 2007, there have been two separate administrations in Palestine, one in the West Bank and the other in the Gaza Strip. The government on the West Bank was generally recognised as the Palestinian Authority Government. On the other hand, the government in the Gaza Strip claimed to be the legitimate government of the Palestinian Authority. Until June 2014, when the Palestinian Unity Government was formed, the government in the West Bank was the Fatah-dominated Palestinian government of 2013. In the Gaza Strip, the government was the Hamas government of 2012. Following two Fatah–Hamas Agreements in 2014, on 25 September 2014 Hamas agreed to let the PA Government resume control over the Gaza Strip and its border crossings with Egypt and Israel, but that agreement had broken down by June 2015, after President Abbas said the PA government was unable to operate in the Gaza Strip."--- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_of_Palestine

Kinda hard to not face justified retaliation when you're constantly attacking your neighbor.

Wrong again. The Palestinian Authority is Fatah (Palestinian National Liberation Movement) who control the West Bank and lost in the Gaza election to Hamas (Islamic Resistance Movement).

The Fatah–Hamas conflict is an ongoing political and strategic conflict between Fatah and Hamas, the two main Palestinian political parties in the Palestinian territories, leading to the Hamas takeover of the Gaza Strip in June 2007. The reconciliation process and unification of Hamas and Fatah administrations remains unfinalized and the situation is deemed a frozen conflict. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatah%E2%8...s_conflict

So there is no unified Palestinian governing body... even just reading the last sentence of your own cited quote.
Your own illiteracy has tripped you up again. 9_9

"Human rights organizations and various international bodies have accused Israel of oppressing Palestinians in the Gaza Strip through a variety of measures, particularly exacerbated since the October 2023 conflict began.

These accusations include:

Ongoing Blockade and Restrictions: Israel has maintained a land, sea, and air blockade on Gaza since 2007, significantly limiting the movement of people and goods, and impacting the availability of essential resources like food, water, medicine, and building materials. This blockade has severely crippled Gaza's economy and contributed to widespread poverty and unemployment.

Military Actions and Destruction: Israeli military operations in Gaza have resulted in widespread destruction of infrastructure, including homes, hospitals, schools, and essential services, and caused massive displacement of the Palestinian population. This destruction is seen by some as a deliberate effort to dismantle Palestinian society.

Restrictions on Humanitarian Aid: Israel has been accused of intentionally impeding the delivery of humanitarian aid into Gaza, worsening the already dire humanitarian situation and leading to mass starvation. This obstruction of aid has been condemned by the UN and other international organizations, who argue it violates international humanitarian law.

Targeting of Healthcare System: Israeli forces are accused of deliberately targeting and dismantling Gaza's healthcare system, making it impossible for Palestinians to access essential medical care. This includes attacks on hospitals, obstruction of medical evacuations, and the killing and detention of healthcare workers.

Creation of Buffer Zones and Corridors: Israel has expanded buffer zones inside Gaza and established security corridors, restricting Palestinian access to their land and resources. These actions have further fragmented the territory and raised concerns about forced displacement and ethnic cleansing."