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Half of people fear timing of assisted dying law alongside benefits cuts, poll shows
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po...48847.html

INTRO: The public is deeply concerned about a “perfect storm” of assisted dying and benefit cuts, a new poll suggests. MPs will vote again later this week on plans to legalise assisted dying at the same time as ministers push ahead with plans to slash £5bn from the welfare bill.

Half, 51 per cent, of those polled agreed they “would be worried about the timing” of such a law at the same time as benefit cuts. While most, 71 per cent, of the more than 2,000 adults polled supported the principle for terminally ill adults in pain, nearly six in 10 believed that no law can safeguard against rogue medics abusing the change for their “own gratification”.

The survey was carried out by Whitestone Insight, a British Polling Council member, for the Society for the Protection of Unborn Children (SPUC).

Michael Robinson, executive director of SPUC said: “This polling clearly shows the public has a much better understanding of the problems with changing the law than some proponents of the bill believe. Indeed, the public know that legalising assisted dying at the same time as slashing benefits, will create a perfect storm, putting pressure of vulnerable and disabled people to end their lives prematurely – and they don’t like it.” (MORE - details)

RELATED: Assisted dying: Yet another progressive slippery slope?

There's a few things in there..
What 'quality of life' does the state owe to citizens who are unable or unwilling to contribute to the state? Linking 'benefits' to assisted dying suggests the state might be contemplating offering a quality of life that isn't worth living for. To establish some sort of reference point - what 'quality of life' does the US provide for those unable to contribute? Anything?

(May 13, 2025 09:54 PM)confused2 Wrote: [ -> ][...] What 'quality of life' does the state owe to citizens who are unable or unwilling to contribute to the state?

The unproductive (for whatever reason) citizen can still offer individual politicians their vote. For that favor, the applicable politician may at least reciprocally go through the outward (albeit potentially empty) motions of trying to reward them or the population group they are slotted in.

Quote:Linking 'benefits' to assisted dying suggests the state might be contemplating offering a quality of life that isn't worth living for.

I'm not sure how benefit cuts factor into "rogue medics abusing the change for their own gratification". In the NHS, does that mean the medical staff doesn't get paid for keeping the patient around as long as possible, thus urging the "vulnerable and disabled people to end their lives prematurely"?

Or does it entail the medical staff merely feeling empathy for the patient living in worse conditions if they leave their care, due to benefit cuts? Ergo, a merciful suggestion that the patient terminate themselves before that. 

Quote:To establish some sort of reference point - what 'quality of life' does the US provide for those unable to contribute? Anything?

For the homeless (totally unable to contribute), the situation is apparently similar to some European countries (only fledgling efforts to address the problem). There is no clarity about how much medical hospice care (if any) is provided in traditional homeless hostels. Certainly, there is no life beyond the homeless shelters, apart from the terminal patient wandering off to reside in abandoned buildings, alleyways, the woods, etc.

Assisted suicide is only legal in eleven states. The conventional patient's hospital bills will be addressed by a range of items from private insurance to Obamacare to Medicare to Medicaid.

For the homeless -- and setting aside the anomaly of the experimental efforts and innovative shelters mentioned in one paper below -- it's doubtful that the option of assisted suicide would even be provided in those states where legal. Again, the great mystery of just what degree of services -- if any -- that traditional homeless hostels provide for a terminal patron.
   

Destitute and dying: interventions and models of palliative and end of life care for homeless adults – a systematic review
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11672054/

EXCERPTS: Homeless adults experience a significant symptom burden when living with a life-limiting illness and nearing the end of life. This increases the inequalities that homeless adults face while coping with a loss of rootedness in the world. There is a lack of palliative and end of life care provision specifically adapted to meet their needs, exacerbating their illness and worsening the quality of their remaining life.

[...] The numbers and needs of people experiencing homelessness while living with a life-limiting illness are increasing, yet these marginalised individuals are restricted from mainstream health and social care, despite often having the greatest needs; this is a pertinent issue that must be addressed within palliative and end of life care.

The number of people experiencing homelessness in the UK is rapidly rising; Shelter reports that 1/182 people are homeless, with over 3000 rough sleeping every night. Similarly, rates of homelessness within European countries including Germany, Spain and Ireland are also rising...
- - - - - - - - - - - - -

Meeting the Challenge of Providing Hospice and Palliative Care for the Homeless
https://www.jpsmjournal.com/article/S088...3/fulltext

ABSTRACT: Providing healthcare for the homeless is a challenging process that is especially complex for the terminally ill. The homeless face the burden of dying alone on the street without the support of family members and limited access to medical care that is the foundation of traditional hospice.

New models of care are emerging, relying significantly upon support of the local community. The INN Between (TIB) and Joshua House Hospice (JHH) are 2 examples of innovative efforts that have been established to bridge this gap in care. TIB was founded in Salt Lake City in 2010 with a grassroots effort organizing community stakeholders dedicated to serving the homeless.

Since opening its doors in 2015 TIB has provided a home-like environment for 250 terminally or acutely ill residents, enabling them to receive hospice, palliative, and respite care. To date, 88 of our residents have died with dignity, surrounded by a surrogate family of staff and volunteers.

Five residents admitted in a terminal state recovered to such a degree that they were discharged from hospice and have gone on to become productive members of society. JHH was founded in 2015 as a facility for terminally ill homeless men and women. It will formally open in Sacramento, CA in the early spring of 2022, with all 4 health systems (Sutter Health, Dignity Health, UC Davis Health, and Kaiser Permanente) serving as partners who will discharge eligible patients to JHH.

The COVID-19 pandemic and community resistance significantly delayed its opening. California has the highest homeless population, and this will be the first such facility in northern California. The phenomenon of NIMBY (Not in My Back Yard) features prominently, but YIMBY (Yes in My Back Yard) also emerged, presenting opportunities for education and growth in the community.

^^^ Many thanks for that.
My grandfather died in agony (they couldn't afford treatment) - clearly no quality of life.
My mother died a lingering death - after an operation she didn't want (a stoma) - no quality of life - she just wanted to die*.
I do wonder about my friend M* - he isn't disabled, gets no sickness benefit but gets fired from every job (well one) for being too slow (on account of cerebral palsy). I take your point about him having a vote - we've never talked about politics but I suspect it would be '?' - just 'a day' is a challenge for him. Surprisingly (or not) the thing he most resents/hates in his life is children - he is an easy target for the little monsters that people bring into the world.

*She did ask for my help to kill herself - I couldn't help - I wouldn't have minded if someone else has but I couldn't kill my mother.

(May 15, 2025 12:45 AM)confused2 Wrote: [ -> ][...] My grandfather died in agony (they couldn't afford treatment) - clearly no quality of life. My mother died a lingering death - after an operation she didn't want (a stoma) - no quality of life - she just wanted to die*. ..... *She did ask for my help to kill herself - I couldn't help - I wouldn't have minded if someone else has but I couldn't kill my mother.

I couldn't have done that, either. It's like wandering a nightmare maze that refuses to feature an exit. Can't handle the extended nature of their suffering, can't avoid the extended nature of their suffering. Lucky are those among us who die suddenly in their sleep, with not much hint of anything wrong beforehand. 

Quote:I do wonder about my friend M* - he isn't disabled, gets no sickness benefit but gets fired from every job (well one) for being too slow (on account of cerebral palsy).  I take your point about him having a vote - we've never talked about politics but I suspect it would be '?' - just 'a day' is a challenge for him. Surprisingly (or not) the thing he most resents/hates in his life is children - he is an easy target for the little monsters that people bring into the world.

And the kind of mosquitoes that nothing can be done about. Probably even innocuously waving the swarms away would bring villagers and pitchforks rushing up the path in response. Hopefully the rare nice kid (Marylin Harris) isn't limited to fiction.

(May 15, 2025 12:45 AM)confused2 Wrote: [ -> ]^^^ Many thanks for that.
My grandfather died in agony (they couldn't afford treatment) - clearly no quality of life.
My mother died a lingering death - after an operation she didn't want (a stoma) - no quality of life - she just wanted to die*.
I do wonder about my friend M* - he isn't disabled, gets no sickness benefit but gets fired from every job (well one) for being too slow (on account of cerebral palsy).  I take your point about him having a vote - we've never talked about politics but I suspect it would be '?' - just 'a day' is a challenge for him. Surprisingly (or not) the thing he most resents/hates in his life is children - he is an easy target for the little monsters that people bring into the world.

*She did ask for my help to kill herself - I couldn't help - I wouldn't have minded if someone else has but I couldn't kill my mother.

Sounds to me like your friend M should get evaluated, as if they have a problem that effects them from working then they should be on benefits. Especially if they have actually tried to work at the very least.

On the subject of the "Assisted dying", a query could be made in regards to how it changes our overall viewpoint of death generally. For instance we've (the UK) have had a lot of noise about the Prisons being at capacity. Perhaps rather than letting people out early, they should start looking at bringing back Capital Punishment. It would also create new (old) jobs, such as executioners. (Having such executioners would also deal with the doctors morality problem, as an executioner could be used for those who wanted to die via assisted).

Further to that if Capital Punishment is brought back, stopping the boats becomes easy. You warn them 3 months in advance that any future boats will be sunk, then when the time comes just open fire on them. (reduces crossings a great deal).

Okay so it's a dark satire and not particularly lefty of me to devils advocate, still worth consideration though.

I strongly support the idea of assisted dying. (Though of course suicide remains an option. I own a firearm that could be used for that purpose.)

But I do worry about possible abuse of assisted dying.

I can imagine people whose quality of life isn't too bad and who want to keep on living, being pressured to die because their care is costing somebody (insurance, national health) more than the medical providers want to pay. Or a wealthy individual being pressured to die by relatives who stand to inherit.

(May 15, 2025 10:44 PM)Yazata Wrote: [ -> ]I strongly support the idea of assisted dying. (Though of course suicide remains an option. I own a firearm that could be used for that purpose.)

But I do worry about possible abuse of assisted dying.

I can imagine people whose quality of life isn't too bad and who want to keep on living, being pressured to die because their care is costing somebody (insurance, national health) more than the medical providers want to pay. Or a wealthy individual being pressured to die by relatives who stand to inherit.

Yah, unfortunately some kind of bureaucratic, evaluative process for approval seems necessary to determine that various kinds of manipulative abuse and gaslighting like that are not taking place. As well as whether the terminal patient is clear-headed or rational.

The candidate for the assist may also have to be assessed whether they still have standing obligations and responsibilities to other family members, business and organizations they might be head of or have high-ranking in, and so-forth... With regard to hanging around as long as possible to tie up those loose ends. 

Basically, the usual dreariness of a mediating government agency mucking up the simplistic, speedy goal that one was initially seeking.

If you can't DIY, you're not determined enough.

(May 16, 2025 10:54 PM)Syne Wrote: [ -> ]If you can't DIY, you're not determined enough.

Fair point. But..
By the time you want to head for the departure lounge the path may be difficult .. suicide by falling out of bed?
Leaving your loved one to find you floating in a bath filled with blood .. probably not a 'kind' thing to do.