Scivillage.com Casual Discussion Science Forum

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Quote:By contrast, you don't see heterosexuals going around making a point to identify as such.

Actually we do. Men and women go around taking great pride in being heterosexual, whether its getting married and having a family or dating alot and having a lot of sex. Every romance movie and love song and novel is about it. It's a whole lifestyle as much as being gay is. But because it's considered the norm and in the vast majority, nobody really specifies it as just a matter of one's sexual orientation even though it is. Believe me if we lived in a society where heterosexuals were in the minority and hated and beat up by heterophobes then suddenly being straight WOULD be a political identity to be claimed and fought for and rallied around, just as LGBT is. Again, the identity is necessary because the haters have made it so by attacking people for it. Just as it is with being black or an immigrant or a Muslim or any other socially marginalized trait. You don't hide it and keep it a secret because you're being oppressed for it. Rather you avow it and affirm it and stand up for it openly until society gets over its unjust hatred of and prejudice against that identity. That's how social change happens, as it indeed has in the case of gays and lesbians and bi's over the past 20 years..

Nicely put. Interesting (not really) to see how Syne weasels his way forward.

I agree pretty strongly with Richard Dawkins and Jerry Coyne! (I have a history of disagreeing with their militant atheism from an agnostic perspective, but they obviously aren't always wrong.)

(Feb 6, 2025 09:40 PM)C C Wrote: [ -> ]Is the male female divide a social construct or scientific reality? (Richard Dawkins)
https://richarddawkins.substack.com/p/is...e-a-social

EXCERPTS: In November 2024, the Freedom from Religion Foundation (FFRF) published a silly article by one of their staffers, Kat Grant (“they, them”) called What is a Woman? The indefatigable Jerry Coyne took the trouble to write a reply, called Biology is not Bigotry, which the co-directors of FFRF reluctantly agreed to publish, albeit with a disclaimer, making clear that it did not represent their views. [...] The leaders of FFRF caved in and took down Jerry’s article, almost as soon as they put it up...

FFRF is a militant atheist organization and it's entertaining to watch the divisions play out within the militant atheist movement.

FFRF's removing Jerry Coyne's article from the FFRF publication (ironically called) FreethoughtNow on the grounds that Coynes article "does not reflect our values or principles" led to Richard Dawkins, Jerry Coyne and Steven Pinker resigning from FFRF's board. The three were easily its most prominent members.

Quote: Science, according to these social scientists, is no more than a “social construct”. What is a social construct? The perfect example is money. ... If reality is a mere social construct, society has the power to change reality. Like the joke about legally repealing the Laws of Thermodynamics so that we can have perpetual motion machines.

Science as a human cognitive activity and social institution is a social construct. The history of the evolution of scientific ideas makes that clear. The issue is whether that which science as social institution seeks to describe, explain or predict (or whatever it is that science does) exists in its own right independently of what humans believe about it. (Philosophy's realism issue.)

I think that most of us accept the objective reality of the natural world that the natural sciences address. Virtually all natural scientists are realists in that regard. Biologists believe in the objective reality of biological organisms. Astronomers believe in the objective reality of planets and stars. (There may be some backsliding among the theoretical physicists.)

The realism issue is more complex and controversial in the (so-called) "social sciences" (which might not be sciences at all, at least in the same sense that the natural sciences are).

Quote:I would argue that legally declaring a man to be a woman, just because he wants to be a woman, or vice versa, has much in common with the perpetual motion joke, and the calendar riots joke.

[...] unfortunately it is no joke. It’s the law in several countries. There are not just males and females, so the claim goes. They are but the extremes of a spectrum. Where you place yourself in the spectrum, man or woman or somewhere in between, it’s all a matter of personal choice. This entails a denial of genetic reality, and a Marxist-like faith in the malleability of nature. A bullying lobby today thinks your sex is not genetically determined but is malleable under your personal whim, sometimes backed up by law.

[...] Medical students are to be taught that both sex and gender are “social constructed”. And, “It is appropriate to affirm each individual’s self-determination regarding both sex and gender labels.” ... It is no idle whim, no mere personal preference, that leads biologists to define the sexes by the UBD. It is rooted deep in evolutionary history...

[...] A watered down version of the ideology concedes that sex may be binary but “gender” is not. The word gender enters the discourse trailing clouds of confusion....

The feminists originally introduced the sex/gender distinction. (Prior to that, 'gender' was a linguistic term.) I originally didn't like the distinction, but it's grown on me over the years.

According to this distinction, sex is biological and objective, rooted deeply in reproductive physiology. While gender refers to things like the clothing that the biological sexes wear in various cultures and the social roles that the biological sexes play. It's much easier to claim that Muslim women's veils and hijabs are social constructs than it is to claim that their reproductive anatomy is a social construct.

The issue today is the incessant activist push to eliminate the concept of sex entirely and shove the whole thing into the concept of gender. And that move, Coyne and Dawkins seem to think, is profoundly anti-scientific and an affront to reality itself. (And I agree with them.)

Ultimately we reach the point where there's supposedly no objective biological reality to sex at all, and it all becomes a matter of whatever people feel like believing.

When I filled out a medical questionaire at my HMO, it wanted to know my 'gender', not my biological sex! Look, if I'm in for an enlarged prostate, my male anatomy is what's relevant, not whether or not I feel like the "real me" (whatever that is, another confused concept) should be a girl. Imagine what happens when one of those "men can menstruate too!" things goes to the hospital for a problem in that regard and gets sent to the prostate guys.

Apparently, physicians are being cowed into playing along with the psychological craziness for fear of losing their medical licenses, while they continue to professionally address the biological realities that are presented to them in the clinic.

Quote: A feeling of being in a body of the wrong sex seems to be a real psychological condition, even if much rarer than the current vogue would suggest. Such “dysphorics” can feel genuine distress. When anorexics look in the mirror, they see an emaciated body that they think is too fat. “Gender” dysphorics look in the mirror and see what they perceive as the wrong genitals. Both deserve sympathy and understanding.

In the DSM, gender dysphoria is a psychiatric condition. While we probably should feel compassion for them, there's no need for everyone to believe that their delusions are reality.

nsNS

Quote:The only thing the cis-gender do is try to protect women.

I've never heard one case of a cis gendered woman being raped or sexually assaulted by a transgender woman. It just doesn't happen. And public restrooms will always involve an element of predatory risk. Lesbians could rape straight or other lesbian women, gay men could rape straight or other gay men, and pedophiles could rape children. It's just the price we pay for having the convenience of public restrooms. If you're scared of urinating in public, use a stall. We've been doing this for ages with no problem. And nothing's changed other than the transphobes suddenly panicking about it.

You don't get to demand how others treat you. That would be fascism. No one is demanding how other treats transgenders, except transgenders and their allies. And you're delusional if you think any law treats them as less than human... but we already know that.

And you're just intellectually dishonest if you think getting married and having a family is anywhere near comparable to overtly identifying by your sexual orientation. The former is merely assumed/implied by the action, while the latter is actively expressed... even having parades to express it.

Again, you're delusional.

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(Feb 8, 2025 12:31 AM)Magical Realist Wrote: [ -> ]

Quote:The only thing the cis-gender do is try to protect women.

I've never heard one case of a cis gendered woman being raped or sexually assaulted by a transgender woman. It just doesn't happen. And public restrooms will always involve an element of predatory risk. Lesbians could rape straight or other lesbian women, gay men could rape straight or other gay men, and pedophiles could rape children. It's just the price we pay for having the convenience of public restrooms. If you're scared of urinating in public, use a stall. We've been doing this for ages with no problem. And nothing's changed other than the transphobes suddenly panicking about it.

A teenager and her parents have filed a $30 million lawsuit against a northern Virginia school system, saying the district failed to adequately investigate and tried to cover up her sexual assault by a male student in a high school bathroom.

The details of the 2021 assault — the attacker was wearing a skirt in a women’s bathroom — made it a flashpoint in the national debate over allowing transgender students to use bathrooms, play sports and go by names and gender pronouns that reflect their gender identity.
- https://apnews.com/article/loudoun-virgi...bef50e7c3f


A violent offender convicted of sexually assaulting a 10-year-old girl will serve her sentence in a Los Angeles County youth facility, despite being 26 years old.
Hannah Tubbs, who identifies as a transgender female, has a lengthy criminal record including violent crimes in multiple states.
- https://abc7.com/hannah-tubbs-sexual-ass.../11516315/


Transgender woman convicted of 2 rapes will be sent to men's prison in Scotland

Trans woman jailed for sex with 14-year-old girl

Get out from under your rock sometime.

Quote:You don't get to demand how others treat you. That would be fascism. No one is demanding how other treats transgenders, except transgenders and their allies.

Of course we do. We all do. We dress and behave and present ourselves in public as our identified gender, and that is how people treat us. If they didn't, we'd immediately take offense and demand they do. Transgender women are no different. They dress like women, act like women, speak like women, and overwhelmingly get treated as women. Only transphobic idiots want to change this and demand they be treated as men who are delusional. But they won't be. Society will continue treating them as women because there's simply no reason not to. It's who they identify as. And there's no more reason to deny them that customary respect than for any other person.

Quote:A teenager and her parents have filed a $30 million lawsuit against a northern Virginia school system, saying the district failed to adequately investigate and tried to cover up her sexual assault by a male student in a high school bathroom.

The details of the 2021 assault — the attacker was wearing a skirt in a women’s bathroom — made it a flashpoint in the national debate over allowing transgender students to use bathrooms, play sports and go by names and gender pronouns that reflect their gender identity.
- https://apnews.com/article/loudoun-virgi...bef50e7c3f


A violent offender convicted of sexually assaulting a 10-year-old girl will serve her sentence in a Los Angeles County youth facility, despite being 26 years old.
Hannah Tubbs, who identifies as a transgender female, has a lengthy criminal record including violent crimes in multiple states.
- https://abc7.com/hannah-tubbs-sexual-ass.../11516315/


Transgender woman convicted of 2 rapes will be sent to men's prison in Scotland

Trans woman jailed for sex with 14-year-old girl[/indent]

Get out from under your rock sometime.

Wow...so just three confirmed "transgender women" accused of rape out of the millions of them around the world. Sounds like a real epidemic! lol So how many of those occurred in public restrooms? I would wager none. Peeing in a locked stall in a room where people are regularly coming and going just to do their business is probably one of safest places on earth.

(Feb 8, 2025 01:06 AM)Magical Realist Wrote: [ -> ]

Quote:You don't get to demand how others treat you. That would be fascism. No one is demanding how other treats transgenders, except transgenders and their allies.

Of course we do. We all do. We dress and behave and present ourselves in public as our identified gender, and that is how people treat us. If they didn't, we'd immediately take offense and demand they do. Transgender women are no different. They dress like women, act like women, speak like women, and overwhelmingly get treated as women. Only transphobic idiots want to change this and demand they be treated as men who are delusional. But they won't be. Society will continue treating them as women because there's simply no reason not to. It's who they identify as. And there's no more reason to deny them that customary respect than for any other person.

No, only moron leftists think they can make demands of strangers. This is why there are copious videos of trans people freaking out, but none of dudes being called Mary freaking out.
But you've just proven that you're fundamentally a fascist... which I already knew. You seriously think you can make demands of strangers.

Only "passable" trans look, act, and speak like women. The vast majority are either plastic surgery nightmares (maybe passable as an over the hill Real Housewife) or obvious men, like the two in Biden's administration. If the majority were passable, there would be no issue with bathrooms, as no one would know any better. And who gets "treated as women" in freak land Portlandia is far from representative. Even if all those pansy leftists are easily cowed by the demands of strangers, that only occurs in radical leftist enclaves like Portland.

Again, no one is demanding that anyone treat anyone as "delusional men." People just decide that is their own personal response to such insanity. Leftists are the only ones demanding how others must treat certain people. As far as the right is concerned, you're absolutely free to enable trans insanity, if you want to. You just can't go teaching and grooming children to do so as well.

If you think Portland, or whatever leftist rag/media you view is "society," again, crawl out from under your rock. "Society" elected Trump. Respect is earned; it's not deserved or a right.

Quote:Wow...so just three confirmed "transgender women" accused of rape out of the millions of them around the world. Sounds like a real epidemic! lol So how many of those occurred in public restrooms? I would wager none. Peeing in a locked stall in a room where people are regularly coming and going just to do their business is probably one of safest places on earth.

You're pathetically and transparently intellectually dishonest. No matter how many I post, you'll just come back with the same tired refrain... even though these were only a few on the first page of google results. I know reading is so hard for you, but the first one I posted literally said "in a women’s bathroom." In the second one "Tubbs admitted to the sexual assault and said it happened in the restaurant's bathroom."

And apparently you count as poorly as you read, as that was four, not three examples.

(Feb 8, 2025 03:38 AM)Syne Wrote: [ -> ]If you think Portland, or whatever leftist rag/media you view is "society," again, crawl out from under your rock.

MR is the green guy with the pointy head in the back...

Ah, a reptilian. He's just been trying to hail a passing ship this whole time.
Must have lost his Hitchhiker's Guide.

Quote:This is why there are copious videos of trans people freaking out, but none of dudes being called Mary freaking out.

No doubt edited and posted by right-wing transphobes to prove how weird and hostile trans people are. So guys aren't offended to be equated with women? Since when? Ever been called a sissy when growing up? That's a girlish boy. But hey, I'll take your word for it. So from now on I'll call you Synthia. ok?

Quote:Only "passable" trans look, act, and speak like women. The vast majority are either plastic surgery nightmares (maybe passable as an over the hill Real Housewife) or obvious men, like the two in Biden's administration.

What would you know about what is womanly? You're basically a woman-hating incel who probably hasn't dated a woman in your whole life. Stay in your lane son. You have no idea what a woman is or the rich spectrum of elegant traits she can possess.

Quote:If the majority were passable, there would be no issue with bathrooms, as no one would know any better.

It's not about them being "passable" in your sexist objectifying sense. It's about them largely being given a pass by our society because everyone who isn't a frothing transphobe knows they are human beings deserving of respect and kindness. It doesn't matter if they aren't beauty queens. That's just what we all do nowadays--we honor who people identify as. And nobody cares if they use women's restrooms except you whining transphobes. They always have and always will. It's just the way things are in the real world.

Quote:Again, no one is demanding that anyone treat anyone as "delusional men.

Of course you are. You are demanding that transgender women be treated like men who are deluded by thinking they are women. Take responsibility for your disrespect and contempt. It's what your politics is all about after all.

Quote:Respect is earned; it's not deserved or a right.

LOL Uh no. Respect is a given with everyone we meet. We let people go before us thru doors. We move over on the sidewalk to let others pass. We say thank-you to the cashier. We let people in before us in traffic. It goes on all the time in a thousand unspoken ways.. You would literally have to be a heartless sociopath to think respect has to be deserved first to be given. Hell maybe that's your whole problem. Unfortunately there's no cure for sociopathy that I know of.

(Feb 8, 2025 05:47 AM)Magical Realist Wrote: [ -> ]

Quote:This is why there are copious videos of trans people freaking out, but none of dudes being called Mary freaking out.

No doubt edited and posted by right-wing transphobes to prove how weird and hostile trans people are. So guys aren't offended to be equated with women? Since when? Ever been called a sissy when growing up? That's a girlish boy. But hey, I'll take your word for it. So from now on I'll call you Synthia. ok?

You've called me far worse. And from a gay hermit... meh.

Quote:

Quote:Only "passable" trans look, act, and speak like women. The vast majority are either plastic surgery nightmares (maybe passable as an over the hill Real Housewife) or obvious men, like the two in Biden's administration.

What would you know about what is womanly? You're basically a woman-hating incel who probably hasn't dated a woman in your whole life. Stay in your lane son. You have no idea what a woman is or the rich spectrum of elegant traits she can possess.

As I just said, you've called me far worse. Again, coming from a gay hermit... meh.

Quote:

Quote:If the majority were passable, there would be no issue with bathrooms, as no one would know any better.

It's not about them being "passable" in your sexist objectifying sense. It's about them largely being given a pass by our society because everyone who isn't a frothing transphobe knows they are human beings deserving of respect and kindness. It doesn't matter if they aren't beauty queens. That's just what we all do nowadays--we honor who people identify as. And nobody cares if they use women's restrooms except you whining transphobes. They always have and always will. It's just the way things are in the real world.

Everyone gets treated different based on how they look. If you don't know that, again, crawl out from under your rock.
Only leftist freaks accept mental illness as reality:

(Feb 7, 2025 07:58 PM)Yazata Wrote: [ -> ]In the DSM, gender dysphoria is a psychiatric condition. While we probably should feel compassion for them, there's no need for everyone to believe that their delusions are reality.

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Quote:Again, no one is demanding that anyone treat anyone as "delusional men.

Of course you are. You are demanding that transgender women be treated like men who are deluded by thinking they are women. Take responsibility for your disrespect and contempt. It's what your politics is all about after all.

No, we just don't want them to use women-only spaces. There are family/single restrooms.

Quote:

Quote:Respect is earned; it's not deserved or a right.

LOL Uh no. Respect is a given with everyone we meet. We let people go before us thru doors. We move over on the sidewalk to let others pass. We say thank-you to the cashier. We let people in before us in traffic. It goes on all the time in a thousand unspoken ways.. You would literally have to be a heartless sociopath to think respect has to be deserved first to be given. Hell maybe that's your whole problem. Unfortunately there's no cure for sociopathy that I know of.

Politeness is a courtesy, not respect. Again, learn what words mean, illiterate.