Scivillage.com Casual Discussion Science Forum

Consciousness, Gödel, and the incompleteness of science
https://iai.tv/articles/consciousness-go..._auid=2020

INTRO: In the early 20th century, the mathematician Godel showed that any mathematical system is incomplete, using a version of the self-referential paradox: 'this sentence is not true'. Here, neuroscientist and philosopher, Erik Hoel, argues this incompleteness extends to the scientific project as a whole; in part due to science’s reliance on mathematics. More radically, Hoel argues, this incompleteness of science may account for why we can't find scientific evidence for consciousness anywhere in the world... (url=https://iai.tv/articles/consciousness-goedel-and-the-incompleteness-of-science-auid-3042?_auid=2020]MORE - details[/url]

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Reality goes beyond physics
https://iai.tv/articles/reality-goes-bey..._auid=2020

INTRO: Of all the sciences, physics has been seen as the key to understanding everything. As Feynman said, “physics is the fundamental science.” But in this article, one of the world’s leading physicists, George F. R. Ellis, who collaborated with Stephen Hawking in work on spacetime’s geometry, argues that much of reality extends far beyond physics. Both complex objects like biological organisms and abstract entities like the rules of chess influence the world in ways that cannot be predicted by studying their simple physical constituents. Science, Ellis insists, is far richer than any single framework can ever capture... (MORE - missing details)

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The Qualia Quietism Manifesto
https://petemandik.substack.com/p/the-qu...-manifesto

INTRO: When I introduced my qualia quietism view in 2016, it was buried in a discussion of illusionism and some third thing I called "meta-illusionism." I also formulated it in a way that seems to have invited some misunderstandings. So here's an update, with strengths added and weaknesses removed.

Qualia quietism is an attempt to avoid taking either of two oft-discussed sides in a debate that seems to be going nowhere. Those two sides are (1) Phenomenal realism, the view that qualia exist and (2) qualia eliminativism, the view that qualia do not exist. Phenomenal realism is espoused, for example, by anyone who insists, along with Dave Chalmers, that consciousness poses a "hard problem." Famous exemplars of the view that qualia do not exist include Dennett's conclusion of his "Quining Qualia" argument and the illusionism defended by my pal Keith Frankish.

Lovers of the law of the excluded middle may be wondering how I'm going to wiggle out of the seeming exhaustion of logical space presented by "either it is the case that qualia exist or it is not the case that qualia exist." Just watch me now... (MORE - details)

RELATED: Quietism

Glad to see you're exploring new avenues in the area of consciousness. I find it most fascinating that consciousness and the brain serve as a kind of "tuning fork" for what lies beyond our world. Consider the following which I posted on another forum:

Quote:Sgt. Pepper said:
I think that the primary reason for this is because most people, whether religious or otherwise, learn from a young age not to believe in spirits or even in anything else that would be considered paranormal (supernatural). For example, many parents teach their children that ghosts aren't real and are only figments of their imagination. In my opinion, the rising interest in the paranormal is due to either people being curious about what awaits them and others after death or because they have personally encountered something paranormal and are sincerely looking for an explanation to make sense of it.

In my experience with the supernatural, it occurs in the higher dimensions only, which just so happens to - at rare opportunities - coincide with the physical realm. There is another, much older, immaterial reality or dimension that contains ours. Our universe is a simulation of sorts. Not artificial, but naturally occurring. I have sensed the presence of demonic forces, only to emerge unscathed by the help of an omnipotent Being who reigns supreme over the spiritual realm. Through the sixth sense. We are only now beginning to uncover the secrets of consciousness, which is an artifact of the higher dimensions. Demons are the embodiment of pure negativity. I am not stating any of this merely to entertain the possibility. But to bring science one step closer towards its destiny.

https://iai.tv/articles/consciousness-go..._auid=2020

Continuously in our study of the most basic ideas of modern science, especially in quantum physics, we are tasked to think, not logically and consistently, but rather paralogically. That is, the admission of the basic nature of reality as paradoxical and thus ultimately undecidable. Everywhere in science that we encounter something that doesn't make sense, like with the mind/body problem, or photon/electron duality as wave/particle, or quantum entanglement, or the observer effect on wavefunction collapse, or Schrodinger's superimposed states, or Heisenburg's principle of uncertainty, we are up against paradox. This suggests to me the need for science to embrace paralogical understanding more and more and less dependence on math, leading to the discovery of more and more new and interesting properties and phenomena.

"How wonderful that we have met with a paradox. Now we have some hope of making progress."---Neils Bohr

"Whenever we proceed from the known into the unknown we may hope to understand, but we may have to learn at the same time a new meaning of the word 'understanding'"--Werner Heisenburg

“Patterns cannot be weighed or measured. Patterns must be mapped.”
― Fritjof Capra, The Web of Life: A New Scientific Understanding of Living Systems

(Jan 15, 2025 01:08 AM)Magical RealistI present the following. Wrote: [ -> ]https://iai.tv/articles/consciousness-go..._auid=2020

  Continuously in our study of the most basic ideas of modern science, especially in quantum physics, we are tasked to think, not logically and consistently, but rather paralogically. That is, the admission of the basic nature of reality as paradoxical and thus ultimately undecidable. Everywhere in science that we encounter something that doesn't make sense, like with the mind/body problem, or photon/electron duality as wave/particle, or quantum entanglement, or the observer effect on wavefunction collapse, or Schrodinger's superimposed states, or Heisenburg's principle of uncertainty, we are up against paradox. This suggests to me the need for science to embrace paralogical understanding more and more and less dependence on math, leading to the discovery of more and more new and interesting properties and phenomena.

"How wonderful that we have met with a paradox. Now we have some hope of making progress."---Neils Bohr

"Whenever we proceed from the known into the unknown we may hope to understand, but we may have to learn at the same time a new meaning of the word 'understanding'"--Werner Heisenburg

“Patterns cannot be weighed or measured. Patterns must be mapped.”
― Fritjof Capra, The Web of Life: A New Scientific Understanding of Living Systems

I present the following:

Hmm..it reminds me of physicist David Bohm's view of the Implicate Order, particularly in its metaphors of a symphony guided by its score and of ripples of our action expanding out into all the universe.(see below). The one thing I do dislike about Langan's view is the use of religious terms like God and heaven and hell. Why dig up these old antiquated concepts to describe this ineffable and transcendent mind? Does it really help us to understand it better to call it a God, which is traditionally laden with dramatic and frankly barbaric images of an all-powerful and impulsive ruler on a throne arbitrarily dispensing moral commands to and judgements upon a sinful and weak humanity? No it doesn't. Best to confine ourselves to metaphors and images that do not imprison us inside old ways of thinking and behaving and feeling. That open us up to a presence experienced as truly beyond anything we can define or imagine, and yet as intimate as own breath. Remember that our limited minds only deal in abstract constructs and metaphors, not the reality they are meant to represent and simplify. The map is not the territory iow.. For me one of the best of these is the Tao--the ever flowing and coalescing influence underlying everything that happens..

"Tao (The Way) that can be spoken of is not the Constant Tao’
The name that can be named is not a Constant Name.
Nameless, is the origin of Heaven and Earth;
The named is the Mother of all things.
Thus, the constant void enables one to observe the true essence.
The constant being enables one to see the outward manifestations.
These two come paired from the same origin.
But when the essence is manifested,
It has a different name.
This same origin is called “The Profound Mystery.”
As profound a mystery as It can be,
It is the Gate to the essence of all life."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89USBBUGsXo

(Jan 15, 2025 08:29 PM)Magical Realist Wrote: [ -> ]Hmm..it reminds me of physicist David Bohm's view of the Implicate Order, particularly in its metaphors of a symphony guided by its score and of ripples of our action expanding out into all the universe.(see below). The one thing I do dislike about Langan's view is the use of religious terms like God and heaven and hell. Why dig up these old antiquated concepts to describe this ineffable and transcendent mind? Does it really help us to understand it better to call it a God, which is traditionally laden with dramatic and frankly barbaric images of an all-powerful and impulsive ruler on a throne arbitrarily dispensing moral commands to and judgements upon a sinful and weak humanity? No it doesn't. Best to confine ourselves to metaphors and images that do not imprison us inside old ways of thinking and behaving and feeling. That open us up to a presence experienced as truly beyond anything we can define or imagine, and yet as intimate as own breath. Remember that our limited minds only deal in abstract constructs and metaphors, not the reality they are meant to represent and simplify. The map is not the territory iow.. For me one of the best of these is the Tao--the ever flowing and coalescing influence underlying everything that happens..

"Tao (The Way) that can be spoken of is not the Constant Tao’
The name that can be named is not a Constant Name.
Nameless, is the origin of Heaven and Earth;
The named is the Mother of all things.
Thus, the constant void enables one to observe the true essence.
The constant being enables one to see the outward manifestations.
These two come paired from the same origin.
But when the essence is manifested,
It has a different name.
This same origin is called “The Profound Mystery.”
As profound a mystery as It can be,
It is the Gate to the essence of all life."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89USBBUGsXo

The name "God" was appropriately chosen and is intended to convey the absolute transcendent Being above and beyond our limited perception. It was an appropriate choice given that the Being in question is an omnipotent intelligence, as reflected by not only the logic inherent in our shared and private reality, but also the latent mathematical structure of reality. If language and reality are equivalent at the highest level of discourse, then God is not a word we use lightly. The Being in question is intelligent and created the simulation or "matrix" we find ourselves in. To reduce God to a simplistic "man in the clouds" is to miss the point completely.