Scivillage.com Casual Discussion Science Forum

https://youtu.be/b8QXm8JU2-g

VIDEO EXCERPT: So, look, that's, of course, Doug Emhoff himself [her husband], who's Jewish, talking about this, saying she's a strong supporter of Israel. But not getting deep into the details of it.

Yeah, the details obviously are, almost everything here. I mean, Joe Biden is arguably the most explicitly pro-Israel American president that we've seen.

Does Kamala Harris fashion herself the same?

Well, it's an interesting question because, just two weeks ago, as Biden was trying to salvage his campaign, he yet again said in an interview that he is a proud Zionist.

He said, you don't have to be Jewish to be a Zionist. It's what we should all be.

And yesterday I asked Kamala Harris's office whether she considers herself a Zionist, and I did not get a direct yes or no answer to that.

I did get a long statement from one of her aides saying that she supports Israel and the defense of Israel, also supports a Palestinian state. But does not did not engage on that one word of Zionism.

That's a word that for a century meant one thing, but over the last year has become, caught up in all sorts of politics and, especially from the left wing of the Democratic Party, trying to make that into a bad word.

And clearly, that is part of what, Harris is trying to navigate here.

What VP Harris’ husband told Jewish voters about her stance on Israel

"There cannot be, in my opinion, peace and security for that region, for the people of Israel, or the Palestinians and people of Gaza, without a two-state solution," Harris said. "And we cannot give up on how we get there. It's gonna matter."--- https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-787350

That's the complete opposite of the reality. There cannot be peace for Israel as long as a two-state solution is on the table.
So Kamala doesn't want peace for Israel. She wants to pander to the pro-Hamas left.

Ofcourse there can. It's just a matter of compromise and diplomacy. What has clearly NOT worked or led to peace over the decades is the one state solution.

(Jul 26, 2024 02:07 AM)Magical Realist Wrote: [ -> ]Ofcourse there can. It's just a matter of compromise and diplomacy. What has clearly NOT worked or led to peace over the decades is the one state solution.

Oh, you poor starry-eyed mooncalf. There is no compromise or diplomacy with people who literally demand your genocide. If you think otherwise, go find any Palestinian man and try diplomacy and compromise about him allowing you to live as a gay man. The international community has never gotten behind a single-state solution. So of course, they just continue to deal with genocidal terrorists who think they have leverage. History is replete with Israeli offers of two-state solutions, many very generous. But they were always rejected, because what genocidal people mean by "from the river to the sea" is not a single Jew living in the Middle East.

That's the reality that little mooncalfs are oblivious to.

(Jul 26, 2024 02:36 AM)Syne Wrote: [ -> ][...] There is no compromise or diplomacy with people who literally demand your genocide. [...]

Or dissolution of Israel and return to diaspora. Sadly, that's probably the case.

The international community (or the main part) rigs TSS proposals with compromises. Palestinian leaders (whoever claims to represent what the population thinks) have to acknowledge items like the right of Israel to exist, and cease aggression to re-establish some historical vision of classic Palestine. They can't even pretend to accept the conditions, since TSS usually entails intrusive inspections by either the global community or Israel itself to ensure that a Palestinian state adheres to those commitments.

Even Tareq Baconi, who is on the board of The Palestinian Policy Network, dismisses the two-state solution as vacuous. The continued pretense of TSS allows the rest of the world to save face, posture that it has a utopian remedy, an "El Dorado" over that next hill which is actually perpetually pursued.

That said, though, it's statistically possible over the course of either decades or hundreds of years that Israel could vote-in a government that doesn't care for TSS with stipulations, anymore. If the terrorist groups could somehow magically remain passive long enough for Israeli citizens to lose their paranoia, or for their survival instincts to become mitigated. If the latter can happen in some US regions and Europe (prior to Putin's invasion), it can happen anywhere.
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(2023) The 5 times Palestinians walked away from a proposed state of their own
https://medium.com/the-geopolitical-econ...a426c26caa

EXCERPT: If Israel just allowed the Palestinians to have a state of their own, there would be peace in the Middle East, right? That’s what you hear from UN ambassadors, European diplomats and most college professors. But what if I told you that Israel has already offered the Palestinians a state of their own — and not just once, but on five separate occasions? Don’t believe me? Let’s review the record.

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(2011) Palestinians rejected statehood three times
https://www.camera.org/article/palestini...th-israel/

EXCERPT: But the Palestinian leadership wants a state so that they can continue the conflict from a stronger position. In particular, they want a state, and they want to keep pressing in every way for the “right of return” to Israel. Israel would not agree to that in negotiations, which is why Palestinians want a state without negotiations, and without having to make any compromises. In accord with this, at least three times the Palestinians have refused statehood when it was offered to them, most recently just a few years ago.

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(2024) Hamas bigwig rejects 2-state solution
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/ham...r-BB1h8ApS

EXCERPT: The Hamas bigwig categorically rejected the option of a political settlement with Israel and a two-state solution to the conflict, on the grounds that it would imply recognizing the legitimacy of the State of Israel, an “unacceptable” red line for the terror movement. He further claimed that while Hamas has agreed to a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders in a bid to “establish common ground” in the context of reconciliation dialogue with other Palestinian factions over the years — most notably its historic rival Fatah — it will not relinquish its ambition to liberate the entirety of historic “Palestine,” including the territory of the State of Israel.

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(2024) Hamas again raises the possibility of a 2-state compromise. Israel and its allies aren’t convinced
https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-...a9987560a0

EXCERPT: The Palestinian militant group Hamas has said for more than 15 years that it could accept a two-state compromise with Israel — at least, a temporary one. But Hamas has also refused to say that it would recognize Israel or renounce its armed fight against it. For Israel and many others, especially in the wake of Hamas’ Oct. 7 attack that spurred the latest war in Gaza, that’s proof that Hamas is still irrevocably bent on destroying Israel. The United States and European countries have joined Israel in shunning the militant group they have labeled a terrorist organization.

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(2024) Why the two-state solution isn’t a solution at all
https://www.sltrib.com/opinion/commentar...-solution/

EXCERPT (Tareq Baconi): The vacuity of the two-state solution mantra is most obvious in how often policymakers speak of recognizing a Palestinian state without discussing an end to Israel’s occupation of Palestinian territory. Quite the contrary: With the United States reportedly exploring initiatives to recognize Palestinian statehood, it is simultaneously defending Israel’s prolonged occupation at the International Court of Justice, arguing that Israel faces “very real security needs” that justify its continued control over Palestinian territories.

"A two-state solution’[1][2] or ‘the two-state solution’,[3][4] in discussions concerning Israel, Palestine and the Israeli–Palestinian conflicts, is a plan comprising two states, a plan (not yet existing) which government leaders or ministers of 28 countries in Europe, the United States, the Arab League states, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Japan, China and India have declared to be either desirable or necessary in order to "create a just and enduring peace"[5] "for Israeli and Palestinian people".

In Israel however, long-serving Prime Minister Netanyahu has, in 2015[6] and again since the outbreak of the October 2023 war, rejected the establishment of any "Palestinian state",[7] which according to news media amounts to "dismissing a two-state solution";[8] former Israeli PM’s Ehud Barak and Ehud Olmert in late 2023 declared themselves supporter of either "the two-state solution"[9] or "a two-state solution".[10] Public support among Israelis and among Palestinians (measured separately) for “the concept of the two-state solution” etc. have varied between far above and far below 50%, depending partly on how the question was phrased."--
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-state_solution

(Jul 26, 2024 05:51 AM)Magical Realist Wrote: [ -> ]"...government leaders or ministers of 28 countries in Europe, the United States, the Arab League states, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Japan, China and India have declared to be either desirable or necessary in order to "create a just and enduring peace"...

What people declare or desire doesn't make it so. But we all know how the little mooncalf believes anything he's told.

So what's the alternative to peaceful coexistence? The wholesale slaughter/banishment of Palestinians just so you can take over their land? Don't Jews already have their own nation?

(Jul 27, 2024 01:28 AM)Magical Realist Wrote: [ -> ]So what's the alternative to peaceful coexistence? The wholesale slaughter/banishment of Palestinians just so you can take over their land? Don't Jews already have their own nation?

You really don't know any history, do you? It's not only the Israelis who have a problem with Palestinians. All neighboring Muslim/Arab countries have refused to take them in (including, recently, Egypt blocking refugees from the Hamas war), and even refused invitations to help rule/build a Palestine state. Like the Israelis, they know that Palestinians harbor terrorists, would be destabilizing to their own countries, and no end of trouble to secure. They're just happy that Israel takes the brunt of it.

Banishment? There is no such thing as a historic "state of Palestine." There was only ever a geographical region of Palestine (akin to the US Midwest, etc.), never a nation, state, or unique people. What people refer to as Palestine nowadays is basically the banished rejects from other Muslim/Arab nations. And they're used like tools, in the terrorist proxy wars of other Muslims. There has never been a "their land." They've always been undesired interlopers who unreasonably demand land (including all of Israel... e.g. "from the river to the sea") that was never historically inhabited by any kind of uniquely "Palestinian" people. They're just Muslim Arabs like any of the neighboring countries.

Israel needs complete rule of the entirety of "Palestine." That way they can ensure safety and security for those people, who have been deprived of humanitarian aid by Hamas as a propaganda tool that Western leftists have abetted and weaponized in Islamist proxy wars. It's been pointed out to you before, but Israel allows Muslims/Arabs to be elected to public office and serve in government. No Jew is even allowed to live in most of the neighboring Muslim countries, very much less help run the government.

Peace can only exist where safety and security are enforced. Not where the neighbors willingly vote for a terrorist regime to rule, e.g. Hamas. If you vote for terrorists, you prove that you cannot be accepted as an equal, rational actor among the international community. If those people lived in safety, they could begin to assimilate to a peaceful Western democracy, and the prosperity that comes with it. But as it stands, all of their problems are self-inflicted.

Israel doesn't even want the land, as they've offered more land in exchange for peace in the past, only to have it rejected in favor of more violence. Israel just wants peace, and if that can only occur with buffer zones or policing the whole area, that's the only credible solution.