Scivillage.com Casual Discussion Science Forum

(Aug 5, 2023 08:18 PM)Secular Sanity Wrote: [ -> ]Non-existence is easier to swallow than some sort of afterlife. It’s not that, it’s more like—"consider the cattle" and "the last men".

It doesn’t have to be delectable, just edible. Got anything that I can swallow, Cece?

If Nietzschen parables are metaphor for ennui or depression, then I've got nothing to offer but the same platitudes and pills dispensed by the professionals (probably worse, actually). Which is to say, I hate telling people things they already know.

Despite such probably having worked on me every time back in the old days, because I was such a sucker for playing the game or not breaking out of character in the fourth wall sense. ("Aw, shucks. Do I really have to close the door to Plath's oven, Aunt Emmie? The fumes smell so good in there.")

But that aside... and not much to go on but those items...

To what extent I might occasionally experience bovine nostalgia, I feel it's purely due to selectively not remembering the bad stuff.

Besides, there are senior moments, senility, etc waiting ahead for sort of reliving my earliest life as a cow. Not unlike Nietzsche finally receiving the gift of catatonia, via the stimulus of the Turin horse whipping incident. Though not knowing anything at all is arguably a grade above cattle status (concerns and problems vanish completely).

The "last men" would seem akin to cattle mentality or cognitive bliss, themselves. If the last generation of humans succumb to a "The Machine Stops" situation for the sake of peace, security, pampering, and dodging risks -- then so be it.

Impact crater is inevitable, dinosaurs need to become passé for the next big thing. The real Übermensch is the cosmic wide adventure that comes after people -- can migrate the long distances between the stars and even be immortal. The "soul" as an information pattern that can pass from one artificial body to another.

OTOH, if some baseline humans survive as sheep under the rule of new shepherds, then they've finally got their gods and the "chimerical creatures" of their ancient folklore. While it might be splitting hairs, I'd prefer turning ancient fantasy into reality being the "point of this 300,000 year journey" to our being nothing more than an extravagant simulation or algorithmic process for producing The Nine Billion Names of God.

It’s the overthinking (me) and the blinking that bothers me—not the inability, but the unwillingness.

A UAI (Ubermensch Artificial Intelligence) with superintelligence, self-awareness, and autonomy to create its own moral framework, and yet, programmed by humans, and without a purpose for humanity?

Even a UAI would eventually wither against the forces of entropy.

Maybe I’m just hoping for better humans. Is that too unrealistic?

Your input is always fascinating though.

Thanks, Cece!

(Aug 6, 2023 04:27 PM)Secular Sanity Wrote: [ -> ][...] Maybe I’m just hoping for better humans. Is that too unrealistic?

That will happen, too -- as tranhumanism, postgenderism, xenofeminism, cyborgism, surgical and bioengineered realization of "furries", etc eventually win out as older generations perish, and the new ones are seduced propaganda and trend wise.

Or that is "better humans" from the perspective of those advocates. I'm not endorsing it, just seeing no way around it barring civilization destroying itself and technologically regressing backwards. Or natural catastrophes eliminating us.

I don't want to be misconstrued as making light of your concerns. Anything but.

It's just that aside from our overthrowing the world and installing Neo-Luddism, the future seems kind of similar to J. D. Salinger proclaiming to visitors who flocked to his property over the decades: "I don't have answers. I wrote 'Catcher In The Rye' to describe a situation." (Whatever the heck that was.)

(Aug 6, 2023 05:04 PM)C C Wrote: [ -> ]

(Aug 6, 2023 04:27 PM)Secular Sanity Wrote: [ -> ][...] Maybe I’m just hoping for better humans. Is that too unrealistic?

That will happen, too -- as tranhumanism, postgenderism, xenofeminism, cyborgism, surgical and bioengineered realization of "furries", etc eventually win out as older generations perish, and the new ones are seduced propaganda and trend wise.

Or that is "better humans" from the perspective of those advocates. I'm not endorsing it, just seeing no way around it barring civilization destroying itself and technologically regressing backwards. Or natural catastrophes eliminating us.

Furries? Geez! Forget that I mentioned "consider the cattle" then. I can’t even find a pair of jeans that I like, much less a bovine suit.

Quote:The real Übermensch is the cosmic wide adventure that comes after people -- can migrate the long distances between the stars and even be immortal. The "soul" as an information pattern that can pass from one artificial body to another.

Assuming ofcourse that the subject of the soul CAN be replicated into an objective form. As we know already, the subject is not in the world as an objective thing or event is. It is always missing, and in this absolute absence generates the illusion?/reality? of an absolute and self-contained objective world that exists independently of it. The soul then defined as the ultimate dependency or illusion of objective being itself, of the soul as nonbeing or "a being beyond" this physically discrete universe of things and everywhere open to the origin of emergent possibility.

Quote:The real Übermensch is the cosmic wide adventure that comes after people -- can migrate the long distances between the stars and even be immortal. The "soul" as an information pattern that can pass from one artificial body to another.

I like the idea but in practice there would have to be some choice made about who gets the immortality and perhaps worse - who doesn't. From an early age I played 'life' on the basis of 3 score years and 10 .. and here I am at 3 score years and 9. If asked if I wanted to be immortal I would have to say I have some business to attend to in the near future which would prevent me from taking up such an offer. I exclude myself from the category but some of the 'great souls' who would exclude themselves are the ones who should go and many of those that desire immortality are the ones that shouldn't be allowed beyond Earth's atmosphere. I don't presume to judge who, which, or why.

With respect to the "last men" SS brought up... It's amazing how willing we already are to turn the whole arts, lit, music, and film world over to AI once it gets past its amateurish phase. Even scientists relying on AI to evaluate and interpret their data to tell them what it means.

People after Generation Alpha may be little more than empty shells or adult children playing around. Ironically, it's the initial cyborgs and the eventual, wholly artificial humanoids -- with innate augmented capacities that can rival "AI resting on a shelf" -- that will have to continue the "spirit of [dead or lobotomized] humankind" afterward. 

"Look at this painting I got it to produce by inputting _X_  request. No real artist with a life involved at all."

"Read this novel I got it to write by inputting _X_ request. No real author with a life involved at all."

"Watch this movie I got it to make by inputting _X_ request. No real actors, screenwriter, director involved in it at all."

"Listen to this top ten song I got it to generate by inputting _X_ request. No real musicians, singers, and instruments involved at all."

"I'm a celebrity. Watch my simulated holographic projection dance around on stage and sing. All generated by AI for an audience of human bodies residing safely in protective tubes being fed all the nutrients they need to stay alive, with waste products filtered out."

The Last Man (Nietzsche)
https://thefallingdarkness.com/last-man-nietzsche/

The Last Man is primarily characterized as the type of individual that is fat, lazy and falls asleep watching TV after over indulging in junk food. This clearly denotes the type of man that is content with living a life whose primary and only purpose is to exist in a perpetual state of comfort, security and pleasure. This is a value system that does not idealize or extol higher values, challenging circumstances or hard work.

Thus Spake Zarathustra
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/1998/1998-h/1998-h.htm

Lo! I show you THE LAST MAN.

“What is love? What is creation? What is longing? What is a star?”—so asketh the last man and blinketh.

The earth hath then become small, and on it there hoppeth the last man who maketh everything small. His species is ineradicable like that of the ground-flea; the last man liveth longest.

“We have discovered happiness”—say the last men, and blink thereby.

They have left the regions where it is hard to live; for they need warmth. One still loveth one’s neighbour and rubbeth against him; for one needeth warmth.

Turning ill and being distrustful, they consider sinful: they walk warily. He is a fool who still stumbleth over stones or men!

A little poison now and then: that maketh pleasant dreams. And much poison at last for a pleasant death.

One still worketh, for work is a pastime. But one is careful lest the pastime should hurt one.

One no longer becometh poor or rich; both are too burdensome. Who still wanteth to rule? Who still wanteth to obey? Both are too burdensome.

No shepherd, and one herd! Every one wanteth the same; every one is equal: he who hath other sentiments goeth voluntarily into the madhouse.

“Formerly all the world was insane,”—say the subtlest of them, and blink thereby.

They are clever and know all that hath happened: so there is no end to their raillery. People still fall out, but are soon reconciled—otherwise it spoileth their stomachs.

They have their little pleasures for the day, and their little pleasures for the night, but they have a regard for health.

“We have discovered happiness,”—say the last men, and blink thereby.

We're doomed.

Am I being too pessimistic or having a "kids these days" moment? There's been some challenging periods throughout history that humanity has overcame. Maybe they won't turn towards bioengineered furries and such. First time that I've heard about furries, BTW. Women are starting to look a lot like ants though...with the butt implants and all.

Quote:WE AERONAUTS OF THE INTELLECT.—All those daring birds that soar far and ever farther into space, will somewhere or other be certain to find themselves unable to continue their flight, and they will perch on a mast or some narrow ledge—and will be grateful even for this miserable accommodation! But who could conclude from this that there was not an endless free space stretching far in front of them, and that they had flown as far as they possibly could? In the end, however, all our great teachers and predecessors have come to a standstill, and it is by no means in the noblest or most graceful attitude that their weariness has brought them to a pause: the same thing will happen to you and me! but what does this matter to either of us? Other birds will fly farther! Our minds and hopes vie with them far out and on high; they rise far above our heads and our failures, and from this height they look far into the distant horizon and see hundreds of birds much more powerful than we are, striving whither we ourselves have also striven, and where all is sea, sea, and nothing but sea!

And where, then, are we aiming at? Do we wish to cross the sea? whither does this over-powering passion urge us, this passion which we value more highly than any other delight? Why do we fly precisely in this direction, where all the suns of humanity have hitherto set? Is it possible that people may one day say of us that we also steered westward, hoping to reach India—but that it was our fate to be wrecked on the infinite? Or, my brethren? or—?— Friedrich Nietzsche, "The Dawn of Day," #575

It's one thing to understand that you won't worry about them once you're dead, but while living, it's impossible not to. 

AI isn't just good at detecting breast cancer.
A pre-AI example of where information and analysis counts.
Certainly the the UK we have no idea whether or not the politicians we elect will fix the potholes in the road outside.
Let's replay that with people who actually have access to what their politicians are up to..

from https://americansfortaxfairness.org/issu...n-tax-cut/

Quote:A new analysis by Americans for Tax Fairness estimates that Charles Koch and David Koch and/or Koch Industries could save between $1 billion and $1.4 billion combined in income taxes each year from the Trump tax law―

Quote:The Koch groups spent over $20 million promoting the tax bill that ultimately became law, according to a fact sheet they provided to the Wall Street Journal. Their efforts included town halls, door-to-door canvassing, and television ads—not to mention direct lobbying—in favor of the tax cuts. Now that the bill is law, they’ve pledged to spend millions more promoting it to the public in an effort to protect the members of Congress who voted for it.

The information - who to approach and how to approach them - is worth (say for Koch brothers) $980M a year.

The ability to have sole access to vast amounts of information is the key to wealth (and/or power) beyond the current dreams of man (or woman). Knowing the best time to start famines and wars will give huge returns on investment.

Will the Hollywood writers, stars and starlets currently on strike ever work again? Even if they do their days are numbered.

Enough for one post.