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James Webb Aiding Theists? - Zinjanthropos - Jan 21, 2024
This telescope has expanded the range of the observable universe yet there is still no sign that we are not alone. There’s even hints that there are other universes and that perhaps not everything came into existence at the BB but prior to it.
For theists, do these revelations make one wonder why all this is necessary? I imagine that God could focus more on us without there being more to care for. Still it’s kind of like whittling down a Sequoia to make a toothpick. Unless we are destined to fill the universe(s) with life I can’t see any purpose for so many galaxies void of intelligent life.. Must be some real exciting stuff coming to believers.
RE: James Webb Aiding Theists? - Magical Realist - Jan 21, 2024
Quote:Unless we are destined to fill the universe(s) with life I can’t see any purpose for so many galaxies void of intelligent life.. Must be some real exciting stuff coming to believers.
I ponder the immensity of the universe we have only scratched the surface on for now. Trillions of galaxies each containing hundreds of billions of stars many of which harbor innumerable planets and moons. All that vacant real estate, wasted and useless from our own biocentric perspective. I suspect there are many more realms filled with beings we can't even imagine. We have to begin to think in terms beyond life, admitting the possibility of minds and consciousnesses out there unsaddled by the exigencies of physical matter and energy. What should we be looking for, in a domain as infinitely variegated as the entire cosmos?
RE: James Webb Aiding Theists? - C C - Jan 21, 2024
(Jan 21, 2024 02:39 PM)Zinjanthropos Wrote: This telescope has expanded the range of the observable universe yet there is still no sign that we are not alone. There’s even hints that there are other universes and that perhaps not everything came into existence at the BB but prior to it.
For theists, do these revelations make one wonder why all this is necessary? I imagine that God could focus more on us without there being more to care for. Still it’s kind of like whittling down a Sequoia to make a toothpick. Unless we are destined to fill the universe(s) with life I can’t see any purpose for so many galaxies void of intelligent life.. Must be some real exciting stuff coming to believers.
Instead of aiding theists, such would (or should) instead be bolstering items like the Rare Earth hypothesis, which merely point out that our planet and solar system never qualified for the mediocrity principle to begin with. It doesn't require the Earth be "special" due to supernatural agency, but instead rests in there being a bevy of convergent circumstances necessary both in the beginning and over a vast period of time for complex life to arise. And then another set of rare convergences for intelligent life to emerge from that, and yet additional historically "lucky" events for that sapient life to ever develop a progressive technological bent.
Unfortunately, though, the scientific-oriented community has such a deep-seated antipathy toward concepts even superficially shared with religious opponents that it will probably continue to disfavor the general idea of the Earth being exceptionally unique (even to the point of being cognitively blind to the statistical context above). That emotionally-driven bias and obstinacy will ironically in turn just facilitate the anti-Western political philosophy and propaganda outputted by the humanities (decolonization of knowledge ultimately undermines the current standards of science and restores traditional local beliefs to regional power).
RE: James Webb Aiding Theists? - Kornee - Jan 21, 2024
(Jan 21, 2024 02:39 PM)Zinjanthropos Wrote: This telescope has expanded the range of the observable universe yet there is still no sign that we are not alone. There’s even hints that there are other universes and that perhaps not everything came into existence at the BB but prior to it.Umm....and what exactly is the logic there? Like - what makes you think there could possibly be 'signs of alien life' in snapshots of the observable universe when it was only a few hundred million years old, on a scale where entire galaxies are just pinpricks of 'dust'?!
For theists, do these revelations make one wonder why all this is necessary? I imagine that God could focus more on us without there being more to care for. Still it’s kind of like whittling down a Sequoia to make a toothpick. Unless we are destined to fill the universe(s) with life I can’t see any purpose for so many galaxies void of intelligent life.. Must be some real exciting stuff coming to believers.
RE: James Webb Aiding Theists? - Syne - Jan 21, 2024
(Jan 21, 2024 02:39 PM)Zinjanthropos Wrote: This telescope has expanded the range of the observable universe yet there is still no sign that we are not alone. There’s even hints that there are other universes and that perhaps not everything came into existence at the BB but prior to it.It's true that we have no evidence of either other intelligent life or other universes.
Whether a telescope can tell us either is another matter.
Quote:For theists, do these revelations make one wonder why all this is necessary? I imagine that God could focus more on us without there being more to care for. Still it’s kind of like whittling down a Sequoia to make a toothpick. Unless we are destined to fill the universe(s) with life I can’t see any purpose for so many galaxies void of intelligent life.. Must be some real exciting stuff coming to believers.With everything but humans running like clockwork on physical laws, there's really nothing to "care for" out there.
The "purpose" is to leave doubt. There can be no free will without doubt. If we knew the extent of our universe were just our solar system, or even galaxy, it would be so much easier to just accept that there might be a God. But with the beginning of our universe so distant and obscured by the finite speed of light, we cannot come to probable conclusions based on the universe alone. The world cannot tell you who you are or what to believe...and perhaps it's designed that way on purpose.
RE: James Webb Aiding Theists? - Yazata - Jan 22, 2024
(Jan 21, 2024 02:39 PM)Zinjanthropos Wrote: This telescope has expanded the range of the observable universe yet there is still no sign that we are not alone. There’s even hints that there are other universes and that perhaps not everything came into existence at the BB but prior to it.
For theists, do these revelations make one wonder why all this is necessary? I imagine that God could focus more on us without there being more to care for. Still it’s kind of like whittling down a Sequoia to make a toothpick. Unless we are destined to fill the universe(s) with life I can’t see any purpose for so many galaxies void of intelligent life.. Must be some real exciting stuff coming to believers.
I think that the 'God' story made more sense in a small geocentric universe with only a handful of known planets in their circular paths overhead and the stars just tiny white dots on a black domelike firmament. All created maybe 4,000 years ago. That little universe with the Earth in its center did seem like a fishbowl for humans.
But space and time more or less infinite in all directions, with billions of galaxies each with with billions of stars, most of which probably have many planets. Plus an unknown number of brown dwarfs and starless rogue planets in the dark spaces between the stars and galaxies. To say nothing of black holes and neutron stars and exotic objects like that. As Carl Sagan used to chant in that voice of his: "Billions and Billions"! Lots of powers of ten.
That grandiose universe just seens kind of excessive if it was created for human beings alone.
(Jan 21, 2024 04:52 PM)Magical Realist Wrote: I ponder the immensity of the universe we have only scratched the surface on for now. Trillions of galaxies each containing hundreds of billions of stars many of which harbor innumerable planets and moons. All that vacant real estate, wasted and useless from our own biocentric perspective. I suspect there are many more realms filled with beings we can't even imagine. We have to begin to think in terms beyond life, admitting the possibility of minds and consciousnesses out there unsaddled by the exigencies of physical matter and energy.
I'm also inclined to think that the universe is probably filled with perhaps inexhaustable wonders. Just a century of astronomical research has revealed a few of them. And I'm largely convinced that all of it wasn't created for human beings. I'm quite doubtful that it was created for any of its inhabitants, no matter how amazing those inhabitants might be to us.
I'm doubtful that the universe is a 'creation' at all, in any intentionally designed craftsmanship sense.
But that being said, I just feel intuitively in my gut that the universe has an explanation, some reason why it exists at all and why its rules (laws of physics, logic itself) are as they are. I don't really expect that humans (or perhaps any other hypothetical aliens) knows what that that explanation is. Sometimes I think of it as God, though not in an 'Abrahamic' way, but more in the manner of the ancient Greek philosophers or perhaps the natural theologians. (Ultimate explanation, source of cosmic order etc.)
It's the ultimate metaphysical question, and perhaps some of the elder races in the universe have devoted themselves to trying to figure it out, in some scientific/religious quest. (The grandest science fiction has imagined that.)
Quote:What should we be looking for, in a domain as infinitely variegated as the entire cosmos?
Our problem, perhaps the problem of all sentient beings, is that we are historically contextual beings.
Imagine a scholar 1000 years ago in 1024. That scholar wouldn't be in any position to ask the kind of questions that we today would consider most important to ask. (Scientific questions for one.) That medieval scholar's intellectual context wouldn't make it possible. So imagine what our own context today might look like from the vantage point of 1000 years in the future.
What should we look for? How can we possibly know?
So (my opinion) is that our best course might be simply to observe. Try to gather as much data as we can, but resist as best we can the urge to jump to conclusions. Hypothesize all we like, but resist the temptation to confuse our hypotheses with ultimate truth. Our attempts to pontificate on the ultimate nature of reality today might look as foolish and laughable a thousand years from now as the certainties of 1024 look to us today.
RE: James Webb Aiding Theists? - Zinjanthropos - Jan 22, 2024
This theist was awestruck by the James Wood, admits he had some doubt at first but eventually decided God is bigger than everything. Nothing is too big for God. For him it seems the Webb images should further cement one’s belief in an almighty creator. Interesting in that I’m not sure if this article represents more how the mind works than God’s apparent size, which is going to increase with each new deep field discovery.
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/enormous-universe-james-webb-telescope/
RE: James Webb Aiding Theists? - Syne - Jan 23, 2024
If you have the power of creation, size doesn't matter.
RE: James Webb Aiding Theists? - Kornee - Jan 23, 2024
(Jan 22, 2024 03:06 PM)Zinjanthropos Wrote: This theist was awestruck by the James Wood, admits he had some doubt at first but eventually decided God is bigger than everything. Nothing is too big for God. For him it seems the Webb images should further cement one’s belief in an almighty creator. Interesting in that I’m not sure if this article represents more how the mind works than God’s apparent size, which is going to increase with each new deep field discovery.So, having no response to my query of #4, next best strategy for a committed atheist is to cherry pick an easy target for implied ridicule?
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/enormous-universe-james-webb-telescope/
Such as a Christian apologist waxing poetic about his awestruck wonderment at JW images, spiced up with selected comforting bible verses.
There are far more convincing arguments in favor of a non-material First Cause aka Eternal Creator(s).
Variously presented here numerous times in the past but clearly falling on deaf ears. No point then in recapping now.
Folks for the most part harden to a certain philosophical position early on in life and thereafter seek out only whatever reinforces that pov. Chronic selection bias is fact.
Often the actual motivation is, in view of the articles style linked above, ironically emotionally based; "Nature is cruel and a real god wouldn't allow it". Or such hubris.
RE: James Webb Aiding Theists? - Syne - Jan 23, 2024
^What a whiny attention whore.